RetroRanger Posted April 6, 2021 Share Posted April 6, 2021 And i followed him (except for the sum ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lakesider Posted April 6, 2021 Share Posted April 6, 2021 (edited) 10 hours ago, Thelilyinvestor said: Charlie Munger just bought 37,5M of Alibaba through the DJCO Big news, bought some for my newphews account now my opinion has been affimed. Edited April 6, 2021 by Lakesider Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LearningMachine Posted April 6, 2021 Share Posted April 6, 2021 (edited) On 3/25/2021 at 10:19 AM, Lakesider said: The antitrust clamp down is said to have a minimal impact on the future growth of the business. The biggest thing being they can no longer force vendors to exclusively trade on Alibaba. They are forcing the sale of some none core media assets after BABA used their sway to censor news of an affair of one of the board members. These assets only represented a minimal fraction on the business. Some of the Antitrust laws are actually a positive for Alibaba. They are now able to have apps on WeChat and have announced a new deals app to launch on the platform Does anyone know if they would still be able to force vendors to provide items at a lower price to them than they do to any of their competitors? If this exercise of monopsony power is not allowed, they won't be able to sell items cheaper to consumer than competitors' purchase price like Amazon, Walmart or Costco can do, which will be a huge loss of earning power, and so we can't just compare them to the earning power of Amazon, Walmart or Costco. Does anyone have a link to the English version of the antitrust rulings? Edited April 6, 2021 by LearningMachine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
n.r98 Posted April 7, 2021 Share Posted April 7, 2021 (edited) Anyone has short insights regarding the whole ecommerce dynamics in China? PDD seems to be gaining traction really fast albeit due to subsidies. JD.com faces a formidable Tmall; can't seem to dethrone Tmall but nevertheless has a strong lead in logistics. If you were to make an ecommerce forecast, do you think that there will there be annihilation or is the market large enough to accommodate them all? Edited April 7, 2021 by n.r98 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DumDumInvestor Posted April 7, 2021 Share Posted April 7, 2021 Out of curiosity, as far as here are a lot of Americans(I'm from EU), does anybody of you used Alibaba services ever? I personally buy some very chip things(like patch cables) in aliexpress and my average bill is 5$(what does include shipping). For example in Amazon I do spend couple of hundreds per order. I doubt that Aliexpress will be able to compete with Amazon, at least in Europe. I do not order anything expensive in Aliexpress due taxes and I do not believe there are any quality items, contradictory to Amazon. Add to this difficulties with returns and each item is sold by separate seller, what adds a headache too. I do think there cloud business are quite interesting, but I doubt that it will be competitive outside China. CCP can just order to shutdown your server if needed and I doubt that any US/EU company plan to use it in current political landscape, maybe there are some cases when they must, but again I doubt that this would ever will be a choice even if price will be super low. On other hand a lot of businesses in China probably would prefer to use cloud-providers outside of China due same reason, not sure if they can, though. Add to this that Alibaba seems to be banned in second most populated country in the world - India, but Amazon seems found a way there. I personally do not see in current political landscape for BABA to gain any market in EU/US or other markets outside of China. Any thoughts on this? Interesting Charlie ever used any BABA services? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Longnose Posted April 7, 2021 Share Posted April 7, 2021 1 hour ago, DumDumInvestor said: Out of curiosity, as far as here are a lot of Americans(I'm from EU), does anybody of you used Alibaba services ever? I personally buy some very chip things(like patch cables) in aliexpress and my average bill is 5$(what does include shipping). I have used alibaba.com. I have a small niche product that I sell on Amazon.com. I found a factory in china to begin ordering pieces in mass quantities. Alibaba is a great platform for B2B manufacturing. I was able to create a spec of what i needed for my product and send it out for bids. I had several factories trying to get the bid and was able to close an order and had it delivered to the US in about 14 days. (small parcel package its a very small product). I have worked through their subsidiaries in a different fashion. My day job is in online brand protection. Alibaba and its subsidiaries are probably the only Chinese e-commerce company proactively trying to combat counterfeits and maintain the reputation of the platform. I have used the Aliprotect platform to remove various counterfeit goods from their sites. I have also met the head of the Intellectual property division for Alibaba. They take IP infringement issues very seriously for a Chinese company. They have various ways that they interact with the IACC (international anti-counterfeiting coalition) here in the US to help US brands fight counterfeiting in China. I personally think Alibaba is great company. I haven't put my money where my mouth is yet. But with Charlie's new endorsement I will be taking another look for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LearningMachine Posted April 7, 2021 Share Posted April 7, 2021 How Alibaba invests, sometimes starting with minority positions: https://www.alibabagroup.com/en/ir/pdf/160614/15.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mephistopheles Posted April 8, 2021 Share Posted April 8, 2021 (edited) I bought some. The accounting is for sure scary, but if it's to be believed than I think it's shooting fish in a barrel. Wouldn't have done it without Charlie. Why isn't Li Lu big in it is my question? Maybe he owns the HK shares so it doesn't have to be reported? Wouldn't that make sense? But then why didn't Charlie by HK shares? If the accounting is to be believed, I would like to see Buffett get in on it. He's expressed regret for never buying Amazon well this he gets for only $600 bn market cap. Would be a perfect place to park $50 bn. Edited April 8, 2021 by Mephistopheles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fahrweid Posted April 8, 2021 Share Posted April 8, 2021 Which Listing would be the better buy? For a Person living in europe. ADR Ticker: BABA or Sahres in Hongkong 9988.HK? Is there enogh of a diffrence to make any of it a better choice? I bought the ADR Ticker:BABA but it might be a better idea to own the shares in Hong Kong directly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gaurav_s Posted April 8, 2021 Share Posted April 8, 2021 @Fahrweid - you can convert your BABA ADR shares to HK:9988 anytime and vice-versa with minor costs. Just call and ask your broker. They are fungible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gaurav_s Posted April 8, 2021 Share Posted April 8, 2021 (edited) For folks living in the US, I had called Schwab Global Services on Monday to ask about this. They charge 20 cents per ADR + $20 wiring fee + HK exchange admin costs for converting ADR shares to HK:9988. They will appear as BABA.S in your account once you convert them. IB also has a similar procedure. Not sure about the costs though Edited April 8, 2021 by gaurav_s Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fahrweid Posted April 8, 2021 Share Posted April 8, 2021 @gaurav_s Thank you for your answer. My Broker is Interactive Brokers. I'm going to look into that. For now I guess I hold on to Baba and think about it for a while. I do not see any advantage to switch form BABA to 9988.HK at the moment. Especially if they are fungible. Thanks again for the insight Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RetroRanger Posted April 8, 2021 Share Posted April 8, 2021 I bought the HK Version, but because they are listed on German Exchanges. ATM i dont see any problem (because of fungible) buying ADRs. The Hongkong Listing are still Just H-Shares, A-shares cannot be bought AS a foreigner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BerndS Posted April 8, 2021 Share Posted April 8, 2021 Hi RetroRanger, The BABA ADSs are subject to the Alibaba Cayman Island-based Varaible Interest Entity structure. Are you sure that the 9988 H-shares are NOT subject to the same or a similar VIE structure, i.e. the H-shares actually represent a small piece of the Alibaba Group Holding Ltd company? As my Google search did not reveal proved evidence, I would be indepted for any reference. Thank you! BerndS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RetroRanger Posted April 8, 2021 Share Posted April 8, 2021 1 hour ago, BerndS said: Hi RetroRanger, The BABA ADSs are subject to the Alibaba Cayman Island-based Varaible Interest Entity structure. Are you sure that the 9988 H-shares are NOT subject to the same or a similar VIE structure, i.e. the H-shares actually represent a small piece of the Alibaba Group Holding Ltd company? As my Google search did not reveal proved evidence, I would be indepted for any reference. Thank you! BerndS The H-shares have the Cayman ISIN KYG017191142. Also Sven Carlie showed the structure in his video in the risk section. Both ADrs and GDRs ( the HK listing ) has some risk beeing "stripped". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LearningMachine Posted April 8, 2021 Share Posted April 8, 2021 (edited) Anyone wonder why all top three insiders have been unloading shares? Softbank, Joseph Tsai and Jack Ma - all three of them! Wonder if they know something that rest of the shareholders don't know? Edited April 8, 2021 by LearningMachine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LearningMachine Posted April 9, 2021 Share Posted April 9, 2021 (edited) Law Review article on issues with Alibaba's VIE structure: https://lawecommons.luc.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1181&context=lucilr If you read carefully Alibaba's response to VIE structure & theft of AlliPay (which itself happened because of the VIE structure), they are effectively admitting the issues: Alibaba Responds to Barron's Story | Alizila Edited April 9, 2021 by LearningMachine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RetroRanger Posted April 9, 2021 Share Posted April 9, 2021 9 hours ago, LearningMachine said: Anyone wonder why all top three insiders have been unloading shares? Softbank, Joseph Tsai and Jack Ma - all three of them! Wonder if they know something that rest of the shareholders don't know? "Jack Ma has publicly stated, as disclosed in the Alibaba IPO prospectus, that he will reduce his shareholding percentage in the holding company of Alipay to not exceed his shareholding in Alibaba Group immediately prior to the Alibaba IPO, and this reduction will be effected in a manner by which neither Jack Ma nor any of his affiliates would receive any economic benefit." Alibaba shareholders own shares in a holding company which holds 100% equity stakes in its Chinese operating subsidiaries. As of the end of fiscal year 2015, Alibaba generated 86% of revenues through, and 95% of the company’s assets were held in, these wholly-owned subsidiaries, not in the VIEs. Through ownership in the shares of Alibaba, our shareholders own these assets and have direct access to the cash flows generated from the operations of the wholly-owned subsidiaries through dividends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LearningMachine Posted April 9, 2021 Share Posted April 9, 2021 (edited) 39 minutes ago, RetroRanger said: "Jack Ma has publicly stated, as disclosed in the Alibaba IPO prospectus, that he will reduce his shareholding percentage in the holding company of Alipay to not exceed his shareholding in Alibaba Group immediately prior to the Alibaba IPO, and this reduction will be effected in a manner by which neither Jack Ma nor any of his affiliates would receive any economic benefit." Alibaba shareholders own shares in a holding company which holds 100% equity stakes in its Chinese operating subsidiaries. As of the end of fiscal year 2015, Alibaba generated 86% of revenues through, and 95% of the company’s assets were held in, these wholly-owned subsidiaries, not in the VIEs. Through ownership in the shares of Alibaba, our shareholders own these assets and have direct access to the cash flows generated from the operations of the wholly-owned subsidiaries through dividends. I understand that was Alibaba's response, but if you read carefully, it makes no logical sense. First of all, why does selling Allipay interest to reduce Alipay shareholding percentage has anything to do with answering why they are selling Alibaba Shares or why Jack Ma stole Alipay from Alibaba. Secondly, regarding what entities Alibaba shareholders own, if you read the sentences, they are being very shady in that answer about what is going on. They start with saying Alibaba shareholders own shares in a holding company which holds 100% equity stakes in its Chinese operating subsidiaries. What does it mean? Does it mean that shareholders own 100% of all of Chinese operating subsidiaries of Alibaba. NO, it doesn't mean that. Even if a big percentage of revenue goes through a subsidiary owned by shareholders, but then ends up in a locally owned subsidiary that shareholders don't own, that doesn't help shareholders. How are 95% of assets calculated? If the value assigned to the internet operating license and trademarks is only 5%, but that is not owned by the shareholders, it doesn't help the shareholders much. Alibaba is not an asset-heavy business. The value of the business is not in tangible assets but in intangible trademark, network, ownership of tollgate into China and tollgates within China. If the shareholders don't get any of those intangibles but get the "tangible assets", e.g. buildings, that doesn't help shareholders much. I went through the SEC filings, and finding that Jack Ma and Joseph Tsai have been SELLING as fast as they can. Looks like they couldn't sell fast enough in the U.S., and so they had to list in Hong Kong in 2019, where they picked up selling big time again. If it is an amazing business, where there is no risk of something to be found or going wrong later on, why sell so fast like that? Edited April 9, 2021 by LearningMachine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RetroRanger Posted April 9, 2021 Share Posted April 9, 2021 Like Mohnish Pabrai Said there is only one reason to buy but 1000 to Sell. WE simply dont know ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spekulatius Posted April 9, 2021 Share Posted April 9, 2021 Interesting podcast regarding BABA - Business breakdown (a spinoff podcast from invest like the best) https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/alibaba-a-giant-among-giants/id1559120677?i=1000516404582 Meg Faber - background/framework of investing in China, Alibaba, Ant financial: https://mebfaber.com/2021/03/24/episode-296-jason-hsu-rayliant-global-advisors-as-investors-were-always-looking-for-uncorrelated-sources-of-return/ Good stuff to listen to while buying more Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DooDiligence Posted April 9, 2021 Share Posted April 9, 2021 1 hour ago, Spekulatius said: Interesting podcast regarding BABA - Business breakdown (a spinoff podcast from invest like the best) https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/alibaba-a-giant-among-giants/id1559120677?i=1000516404582 Meg Faber - background/framework of investing in China, Alibaba, Ant financial: https://mebfaber.com/2021/03/24/episode-296-jason-hsu-rayliant-global-advisors-as-investors-were-always-looking-for-uncorrelated-sources-of-return/ Good stuff to listen to while buying more Thanks, I bought a little more on the dip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pistachio_Lawyer Posted April 10, 2021 Share Posted April 10, 2021 7 hours ago, DooDiligence said: Thanks, I bought a little more on the dip. Well it looks like the dip is yet to come. BABA just got punched pretty hard by Chinese regulators: https://www.wsj.com/articles/alibaba-hit-with-record-2-8-billion-antitrust-fine-by-chinas-market-regulator-11618018830 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fareastwarriors Posted April 10, 2021 Share Posted April 10, 2021 38 minutes ago, Pistachio_Lawyer said: Well it looks like the dip is yet to come. BABA just got punched pretty hard by Chinese regulators: https://www.wsj.com/articles/alibaba-hit-with-record-2-8-billion-antitrust-fine-by-chinas-market-regulator-11618018830 It's less than $3 billion. Is it That significant? What else is there besides the fine? What's in the wsj article? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spekulatius Posted April 10, 2021 Share Posted April 10, 2021 Just for perspective, Google has paid $9.7B in fines in the EU alone so far. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-09-16/after-9-billion-in-fines-eu-says-something-nice-about-google Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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