drugs and prostitution

[stahleyp]

Eric,

 

I agree that the legality of something will not stop people from doing things that are morally questionable.

 

In fact, I also agree with you that it would probably reduce crime and other costs.

 

I suppose, what bothers me truly, is that if that ever became legal (I think it will someday) that people will start accepting it as being "okay." I knew a girl who got caught up in that lifestyle of drug use and other things (not prostitution as far as I know) and she recently passed away in her late 30s. I believe it was self inflicted, but that's just a guess. Her parents never disclosed why.

 

At one time, it was scandalous for people to get divorced. Now, it's widely accepted. It was scandalous to do drugs, now it's widely accepted and "cool". It was scandalous to file bankruptcy, now it's okay.

 

I suppose I'm from that old school mindset of working hard, not taking out loans, not doing drugs, etc. I was talking to a girl the other day and I told her some of my thoughts of the kind of girl I was looking for and she summed it up as "boring."

 

I do have Pinker's Better Angels Among Us on Audible though. I've not yet listened to it but perhaps things aren't as bad as it looks through these boring eyes.

[ERICOPOLY]

Eric,

 

I agree that the legality of something will not stop people from doing things that are morally questionable.

 

In fact, I also agree with you that it would probably reduce crime and other costs.

 

I suppose, what bothers me truly, is that if that ever became legal (I think it will someday) that people will start accepting it as being "okay." I knew a girl who got caught up in that lifestyle of drug use and other things (not prostitution as far as I know) and she recently passed away in her late 30s. I believe it was self inflicted, but that's just a guess. Her parents never disclosed why.

 

At one time, it was scandalous for people to get divorced. Now, it's widely accepted. It was scandalous to do drugs, now it's widely accepted and "cool". It was scandalous to file bankruptcy, now it's okay.

 

I suppose I'm from that old school mindset of working hard, not taking out loans, not doing drugs, etc. I was talking to a girl the other day and I told her some of my thoughts of the kind of girl I was looking for and she summed it up as "boring."

 

I do have Pinker's Better Angels Among Us on Audible though. I've not yet listened to it but perhaps things aren't as bad as it looks through these boring eyes.

 

You are in just as much trouble with your wife if you have sex with your dental hygienist for free.  So legality isn't what gives us pause.

[stahleyp]

What gives us pause, Eric?

 

Is it the fear of getting into trouble with the Mrs?

 

What if, there was no way she would find out? And, it's the most attractive dental hygienist (or let's just say dentist, you sexist - just messing with ya) you'd ever seen?

 

What would give me pause is not the legality, nor getting into trouble with my spouse. It's violating my wife's trust and my conscience - even if she never found out.

 

Indeed, marriage is fairly new invention in the life of us primates. We are violating our evolutionary instincts of procreation by being married (unless the marriage is open, obviously).

 

[LC]

I frankly don't think legal prostitution will increase healthcare expenses. I think it will increase visibility of safe sex. It reminds me of college drinking, it's a bigger problem in the states where it's illegal than Canada where the age is 18.

 

Also if it's legal, women will be incentivized to maintain a a STD- free status and therefore take proper precaution.

[Rabbitisrich]

Indeed, marriage is fairly new invention in the life of us primates. We are violating our evolutionary instincts of procreation by being married (unless the marriage is open, obviously).

 

That is a rather idiosyncratic interpretation of evolution. How is it possible to be "violating our evolutionary instincts" through our behavior? It's like watching an orangutan demonstrate tool making capabilites in captivity that it hadn't shown in the wild, and coming to the conclusion, "Oh, that's just not natural."

[meiroy]

Eric,

 

I agree that the legality of something will not stop people from doing things that are morally questionable.

 

In fact, I also agree with you that it would probably reduce crime and other costs.

 

I suppose, what bothers me truly, is that if that ever became legal (I think it will someday) that people will start accepting it as being "okay." I knew a girl who got caught up in that lifestyle of drug use and other things (not prostitution as far as I know) and she recently passed away in her late 30s. I believe it was self inflicted, but that's just a guess. Her parents never disclosed why.

 

At one time, it was scandalous for people to get divorced. Now, it's widely accepted. It was scandalous to do drugs, now it's widely accepted and "cool". It was scandalous to file bankruptcy, now it's okay.

 

I suppose I'm from that old school mindset of working hard, not taking out loans, not doing drugs, etc. I was talking to a girl the other day and I told her some of my thoughts of the kind of girl I was looking for and she summed it up as "boring."

 

I do have Pinker's Better Angels Among Us on Audible though. I've not yet listened to it but perhaps things aren't as bad as it looks through these boring eyes.

 

You are in just as much trouble with your wife if you have sex with your dental hygienist for free.  So legality isn't what gives us pause.

 

Any special reason you mentioned "dental hygienist sex"? Is that a fetish? Post some pics and the crowd wisdom will decide hot or not!

 

[stahleyp]

Indeed, marriage is fairly new invention in the life of us primates. We are violating our evolutionary instincts of procreation by being married (unless the marriage is open, obviously).

 

That is a rather idiosyncratic interpretation of evolution. How is it possible to be "violating our evolutionary instincts" through our behavior? It's like watching an orangutan demonstrate tool making capabilites in captivity that it hadn't shown in the wild, and coming to the conclusion, "Oh, that's just not natural."

 

It's a social construct - nothing more. It reduces our chance to spread our dna. After all, if you have several partners, you can keep more of them pregnant to keep up your gene pool.

[meiroy]

Well, just last month the WHO called for decriminalization of drugs

 

http://www.economist.com/blogs/newsbook/2014/07/illicit-drugs

 

"    - Countries should work toward developing policies and laws that decriminalize injection and other use of drugs and, thereby, reduce incarceration.

 

    - Countries should work toward developing policies and laws that decriminalize the use of clean needles and syringes (and that permit NSPs [needle and syringe programmes]) and that legalize OST [opioid substitution therapy] for people who are opioid-dependent.

 

    - Countries should ban compulsory treatment for people who use and/or inject drugs."

 

So, we're getting there and we will.

 

Various drugs have gotten more ubiquitous and cheaper, and the illegal drugs industry has been just growing on *because* of current laws and regulation.  Anyone who is objecting to currently illegal drug usage due to "morale" or religious reasons should be the first in line to support decriminalizing.

 

It's not only the increase of violence in the US but it's also supporting criminal organization abroad to the point of undermining various governments, it is also financing groups which are hostile to the USA where US soldiers go to die by weapons bought by the illicit drug trade.

 

As for prostitution that seems like a total no brainer for me as well, many prostitutes of course sell their bodies to pay for their drug addiction.

 

By legalizing both prostitution and drugs it would take the control from the underworld society and give it back to the society we live in.

 

In the past year I've read "Get Capone: The Secret Plot That Captured America's Most Wanted Gangster " and "The Candy Machine: How Cocaine Took Over the World", I'm giving both a 7 so it's not an all out recommendation but it is relating to this thread so it's worth a read. The Candy Machine includes a lot of data and examples about what I wrote above.

 

[meiroy]

Indeed, marriage is fairly new invention in the life of us primates. We are violating our evolutionary instincts of procreation by being married (unless the marriage is open, obviously).

 

That is a rather idiosyncratic interpretation of evolution. How is it possible to be "violating our evolutionary instincts" through our behavior? It's like watching an orangutan demonstrate tool making capabilites in captivity that it hadn't shown in the wild, and coming to the conclusion, "Oh, that's just not natural."

 

It's a social construct - nothing more. It reduces our chance to spread our dna. After all, if you have several partners, you can keep more of them pregnant to keep up your gene pool.

 

I beg to differ. I've been married to one person (compared to being married to several people which is legal in some countries) and by my calculation in 189 years half the population on earth will have my facial features due to the amounts that I have donated to the local sperm bank. QED.

 

[ERICOPOLY]

What gives us pause, Eric?

 

Is it the fear of getting into trouble with the Mrs?

 

What if, there was no way she would find out? And, it's the most attractive dental hygienist (or let's just say dentist, you sexist - just messing with ya) you'd ever seen?

 

What would give me pause is not the legality, nor getting into trouble with my spouse. It's violating my wife's trust and my conscience - even if she never found out.

 

Indeed, marriage is fairly new invention in the life of us primates. We are violating our evolutionary instincts of procreation by being married (unless the marriage is open, obviously).

 

The trouble with the Mrs is one example.  Your guilt is another.  These are examples that keep us monogamous without needing police intervention.

 

However, I can't say being married is a violation of our instincts.  There are examples of monogamy throughout the animal kingdom, even amongst primates.  Same for polyamory.

 

So are you being driven by your instincts or your morals?  It might just be convenient that you can be morally superior whilst merely acting within your instincts.  However, there is sexual variation amongst species as well.  Another person may be acting within his instincts and yet have multiple partners at once.  He is not acting outside of his idea of moral behavior.

 

We are social animals with social instincts.  Typically, if you feel bad about something it's because your actions were harmful to another -- this is going to happen if you are programmed to cooperate with others within a social unit.

 

Problems arise when some of us are programmed with monogamous instincts, some with polyamorous, and some with homosexual.  We are going to get at each other's throats as to what is "moral" or not.  That's because of the lack of understanding how we are different.

[ERICOPOLY]

Eric,

 

I agree that the legality of something will not stop people from doing things that are morally questionable.

 

In fact, I also agree with you that it would probably reduce crime and other costs.

 

I suppose, what bothers me truly, is that if that ever became legal (I think it will someday) that people will start accepting it as being "okay." I knew a girl who got caught up in that lifestyle of drug use and other things (not prostitution as far as I know) and she recently passed away in her late 30s. I believe it was self inflicted, but that's just a guess. Her parents never disclosed why.

 

At one time, it was scandalous for people to get divorced. Now, it's widely accepted. It was scandalous to do drugs, now it's widely accepted and "cool". It was scandalous to file bankruptcy, now it's okay.

 

I suppose I'm from that old school mindset of working hard, not taking out loans, not doing drugs, etc. I was talking to a girl the other day and I told her some of my thoughts of the kind of girl I was looking for and she summed it up as "boring."

 

I do have Pinker's Better Angels Among Us on Audible though. I've not yet listened to it but perhaps things aren't as bad as it looks through these boring eyes.

 

You are in just as much trouble with your wife if you have sex with your dental hygienist for free.  So legality isn't what gives us pause.

 

Any special reason you mentioned "dental hygienist sex"? Is that a fetish? Post some pics and the crowd wisdom will decide hot or not!

 

Are you looking for some material to take to your sperm bank? 

[ERICOPOLY]

Also, the law doesn't say that prostitution is only illegal if the johns are married.

 

It's illegal even for unwedded johns.

 

So that marriage argument is bull-crap.

[ERICOPOLY]

A while ago I watched a documentary on Netflix about why we "fall in love".  I think this is it:

 

http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/brainsex-why-we-fall-in-love/

 

It showed brain-scans of various couples.  The brains of some married couples were still "in love" after a couple of decades of marriage.

 

I believe it also compared the brains of some individuals (not monogamous) with brains of primates that are not monogamous.

 

It was interesting.  I think it explains a lot -- some people just can't stay married.  Biologically.

 

For others, they can't understand why anyone would cheat on their spouse.

 

People are different.  Not immoral, just different.

[ERICOPOLY]

it is also financing groups which are hostile to the USA where US soldiers go to die by weapons bought by the illicit drug trade.

 

Politically, when you decriminalize drugs you just call it "economic sanctions against Al Qaeda".

 

That way Fox News will support it.

[Patmo]

Agree 100%. It's also going to happen, but it will take a while. Seems like a generational type of change, where our kids or the kids of our kids will see things in a different light and make smarter choices. A long way down the road people will think we were fumbling idiots for having this stuff criminalized in the first place.

[Phaceliacapital]

I would love to see the Tickers for those businesses.

[stahleyp]

What gives us pause, Eric?

 

Is it the fear of getting into trouble with the Mrs?

 

What if, there was no way she would find out? And, it's the most attractive dental hygienist (or let's just say dentist, you sexist - just messing with ya) you'd ever seen?

 

What would give me pause is not the legality, nor getting into trouble with my spouse. It's violating my wife's trust and my conscience - even if she never found out.

 

Indeed, marriage is fairly new invention in the life of us primates. We are violating our evolutionary instincts of procreation by being married (unless the marriage is open, obviously).

 

The trouble with the Mrs is one example.  Your guilt is another.  These are examples that keep us monogamous without needing police intervention.

 

However, I can't say being married is a violation of our instincts.  There are examples of monogamy throughout the animal kingdom, even amongst primates.  Same for polyamory.

 

So are you being driven by your instincts or your morals?  It might just be convenient that you can be morally superior whilst merely acting within your instincts.  However, there is sexual variation amongst species as well.  Another person may be acting within his instincts and yet have multiple partners at once.  He is not acting outside of his idea of moral behavior.

 

We are social animals with social instincts.  Typically, if you feel bad about something it's because your actions were harmful to another -- this is going to happen if you are programmed to cooperate with others within a social unit.

 

Problems arise when some of us are programmed with monogamous instincts, some with polyamorous, and some with homosexual.  We are going to get at each other's throats as to what is "moral" or not.  That's because of the lack of understanding how we are different.

 

Eric, you can use the same argument for theft. Madoff was acting on his instincts - greed. Some people may have the polyamorous instinct and some may have the theft instinct. Some may have the monogamous instinct and the charity instinct. None of these are more moral or immoral than the other - all simply instincts.

[rkbabang]

All this talk about morals and health is just B.S.  How is it moral to use force to stop two consenting adults from exchanging money for a mutually agreed upon product or service?  "But I don't like people doing that"  isn't a justification for using force against another human being.  Not if you think human beings are "more valuable than animals".

 

[rkbabang]

Just buy a reloading press if bullets are 5,000.

 

Hand loading is pretty easy.

 

For one you need bullets to handload your own ammunition.  I don't think for a minute that loaded ammunition would be $5000 per round and gun powder, brass, and bullets would be cheap.  But even if that is the case, I'm a firm believer in the division of labor.  My time is worth too much to spend my spare time in my basement reloading ammo.  Someone with a factory can do it much more efficiently and I am perfectly willing to pay the market price for those factory loaded rounds.  It goes back to the morality of using force to stop people from selling something at a price they want to a buyer who is willing to pay.

[ERICOPOLY]

What gives us pause, Eric?

 

Is it the fear of getting into trouble with the Mrs?

 

What if, there was no way she would find out? And, it's the most attractive dental hygienist (or let's just say dentist, you sexist - just messing with ya) you'd ever seen?

 

What would give me pause is not the legality, nor getting into trouble with my spouse. It's violating my wife's trust and my conscience - even if she never found out.

 

Indeed, marriage is fairly new invention in the life of us primates. We are violating our evolutionary instincts of procreation by being married (unless the marriage is open, obviously).

 

The trouble with the Mrs is one example.  Your guilt is another.  These are examples that keep us monogamous without needing police intervention.

 

However, I can't say being married is a violation of our instincts.  There are examples of monogamy throughout the animal kingdom, even amongst primates.  Same for polyamory.

 

So are you being driven by your instincts or your morals?  It might just be convenient that you can be morally superior whilst merely acting within your instincts.  However, there is sexual variation amongst species as well.  Another person may be acting within his instincts and yet have multiple partners at once.  He is not acting outside of his idea of moral behavior.

 

We are social animals with social instincts.  Typically, if you feel bad about something it's because your actions were harmful to another -- this is going to happen if you are programmed to cooperate with others within a social unit.

 

Problems arise when some of us are programmed with monogamous instincts, some with polyamorous, and some with homosexual.  We are going to get at each other's throats as to what is "moral" or not.  That's because of the lack of understanding how we are different.

 

Eric, you can use the same argument for theft. Madoff was acting on his instincts - greed. Some people may have the polyamorous instinct and some may have the theft instinct. Some may have the monogamous instinct and the charity instinct. None of these are more moral or immoral than the other - all simply instincts.

 

There was a victim in Madoff's crime. 

 

It's like complaining that your dentist is committing a crime for not doing your dental work for free.  So you should imprison him.  However, if he cleans your teeth for free it's not a crime.

 

You wanted your teeth cleaned -- you are not a victim of the dentist.

 

Now, if you want to get off, how are you a victim of the prostitute?

[rkbabang]

What gives us pause, Eric?

 

Is it the fear of getting into trouble with the Mrs?

 

What if, there was no way she would find out? And, it's the most attractive dental hygienist (or let's just say dentist, you sexist - just messing with ya) you'd ever seen?

 

What would give me pause is not the legality, nor getting into trouble with my spouse. It's violating my wife's trust and my conscience - even if she never found out.

 

Indeed, marriage is fairly new invention in the life of us primates. We are violating our evolutionary instincts of procreation by being married (unless the marriage is open, obviously).

 

The trouble with the Mrs is one example.  Your guilt is another.  These are examples that keep us monogamous without needing police intervention.

 

However, I can't say being married is a violation of our instincts.  There are examples of monogamy throughout the animal kingdom, even amongst primates.  Same for polyamory.

 

So are you being driven by your instincts or your morals?  It might just be convenient that you can be morally superior whilst merely acting within your instincts.  However, there is sexual variation amongst species as well.  Another person may be acting within his instincts and yet have multiple partners at once.  He is not acting outside of his idea of moral behavior.

 

We are social animals with social instincts.  Typically, if you feel bad about something it's because your actions were harmful to another -- this is going to happen if you are programmed to cooperate with others within a social unit.

 

Problems arise when some of us are programmed with monogamous instincts, some with polyamorous, and some with homosexual.  We are going to get at each other's throats as to what is "moral" or not.  That's because of the lack of understanding how we are different.

 

Eric, you can use the same argument for theft. Madoff was acting on his instincts - greed. Some people may have the polyamorous instinct and some may have the theft instinct. Some may have the monogamous instinct and the charity instinct. None of these are more moral or immoral than the other - all simply instincts.

 

There was a victim in Madoff's crime. 

 

It's like complaining that your dentist is committing a crime for not doing your dental work for free.  So you should imprison him.  However, if he cleans your teeth for free it's not a crime.

 

You wanted your teeth cleaned -- you are not a victim of the dentist.

 

It is just like the old usury laws.  It was fine to lend money to people for free, just a crime to get paid to do it even if the borrower was perfectly willing to pay interest.

 

[rkbabang]

I for one would like to see crack vs cocaine penalties set to equal as a first step. Could be a step towards dealing with the racial disparity in prisons.

 

And it'd be nice for all drug penalties to carry less time in jail than crimes such as rape, murder, and kidnapping.

[ERICOPOLY]

It's actually one of those professions that provides the best customer service.  Funny that BofA is allowed to keep it's door open, and some of these women go to jail.

[SmallCap]

Just curious how you all would apply your thinking on this subject to the topic of steroids and other performance enhancing drugs in sports?

[writser]

Eric,

 

I agree that the legality of something will not stop people from doing things that are morally questionable.

 

In fact, I also agree with you that it would probably reduce crime and other costs.

 

I suppose, what bothers me truly, is that if that ever became legal (I think it will someday) that people will start accepting it as being "okay." I knew a girl who got caught up in that lifestyle of drug use and other things (not prostitution as far as I know) and she recently passed away in her late 30s. I believe it was self inflicted, but that's just a guess. Her parents never disclosed why.

 

At one time, it was scandalous for people to get divorced. Now, it's widely accepted. It was scandalous to do drugs, now it's widely accepted and "cool". It was scandalous to file bankruptcy, now it's okay.

 

Problem is that apparently you decide for yourself what is "okay" and what not. Al Qaida has a different set of beliefs. Should we take theirs in consideration as well when designing the law? Why would your feelings be more important than theirs? I suggest we try to leave our personal opinions out of it and base policy on measurable outcomes instead.