Robin Williams Passed Away

[rkbabang]

I am not sure calling it selfish is right. Severe depression can feel like your own brain is torturing itself. Most people have not experienced this on a regular basis. And to really understand this, you basicly have to experience it. No other way about it. I can tell you that hard drugs are amazing, but it is impossible to even have a slight clue unless you tried it. There is just no way to show this to someone else in picture or words.

 

I think it would be more comparable to being tortured, at a certain point you do anything to get out of it and mechanisms like rational thought and empathy are mostly shut down. That is also why mental illness often goes hand in hand with drug/alcohol abuse or other addictions. I think depression is basicly your defense mechanism (feeling bad about something) working a little bit too well.

 

most people are pretty much in the middle. If -10 would be feeling the worst possible and +10 would be doing pure heroin, then most people are between -4 and +6 through out their lifes. So it is pretty much impossible to really know what someone with bipolar disorder going from -10 to +10 on a regular basis really goes through untill you experience it yourself. The mistake people make is assuming that someone who kills himself does it when feeling like -4 instead of -10, and should have just slept it off or something. Especially if you have never seriously considered suicide, you should probably praise your lucky stars that you  won the genetic lottery in that regard and not call these people selfish.

 

Allthough it is not bad to attach stigma to suicide as a society I think.

 

I agree, with a lot of what you are saying.  In my view we have such a short precious amount of time in this life, the fact that some people want to shorten it for themselves even further is not even something I can imagine.  And it is extremely hard to have empathy for someone when you can not put yourself in their shoes easily.  That said, it is something that is done for personal reasons without much regard for how it is going to effect those who love you, so it is by definition a selfish act.  Maybe an understandable one, but a selfish one, none the less.    Like I said, it is just sad for everyone involved.

 

Also it is absolutely a good thing to attach a social stigma to suicide.  If you look at suicide statistics by country there is nothing that correlates 1 to 1 with high suicide rates, not gun ownership, not wealth, nothing.  Why is the suicide rate so high in Japan?  It is a cultural phenomenon.  Anything you can do to make it culturally unacceptable can only save lives.

 

[radioheadok3]

With all due respect RKABang, I think you're out of your depth here. I think sentiment like yours is one of the reasons many people quietly suffer from depression. Thinking suicide is "selfish" is a complete misunderstanding of the disease. Selfish implies that one has control over how they're feeling, and that "gee, if they just pulled themselves up by their bootstraps, they could get through it." Why we think this attitude is OK when the brain is the organ in question is beyond me. If you continually felt at your worst, not for days or months, but years, how do you think you would feel? Seriously contemplate that. I don't think many people can, hence the adage, "you have to experience clinical depression to understand it."

 

Nevertheless, people will continue to use their "normal" brains to analyze a brain disorder, which is why I think the stigma surrounding mental illness still exists.

[Alekbaylee]

I am not sure calling it selfish is right. Severe depression can feel like your own brain is torturing itself. Most people have not experienced this on a regular basis. And to really understand this, you basicly have to experience it. No other way about it. I can tell you that hard drugs are amazing, but it is impossible to even have a slight clue unless you tried it. There is just no way to show this to someone else in picture or words.

 

I think it would be more comparable to being tortured, at a certain point you do anything to get out of it and mechanisms like rational thought and empathy are mostly shut down. That is also why mental illness often goes hand in hand with drug/alcohol abuse or other addictions. I think depression is basicly your defense mechanism (feeling bad about something) working a little bit too well.

 

most people are pretty much in the middle. If -10 would be feeling the worst possible and +10 would be doing pure heroin, then most people are between -4 and +6 through out their lifes. So it is pretty much impossible to really know what someone with bipolar disorder going from -10 to +10 on a regular basis really goes through untill you experience it yourself. The mistake people make is assuming that someone who kills himself does it when feeling like -4 instead of -10, and should have just slept it off or something. Especially if you have never seriously considered suicide, you should probably praise your lucky stars that you  won the genetic lottery in that regard and not call these people selfish.

 

Allthough it is not bad to attach stigma to suicide as a society I think.

 

+1

Very well thought and expressed Yadayada.

[ERICOPOLY]

You only enjoy your short time in this life if you are experiencing joy.

 

You can't argue with that, so don't even try.

[Uccmal]

With all due respect RKABang, I think you're out of your depth here. I think sentiment like yours is one of the reasons many people quietly suffer from depression. Thinking suicide is "selfish" is a complete misunderstanding of the disease. Selfish implies that one has control over how they're feeling, and that "gee, if they just pulled themselves up by their bootstraps, they could get through it." Why we think this attitude is OK when the brain is the organ in question is beyond me. If you continually felt at your worst, not for days or months, but years, how do you think you would feel? Seriously contemplate that. I don't think many people can, hence the adage, "you have to experience clinical depression to understand it."

 

Nevertheless, people will continue to use their "normal" brains to analyze a brain disorder, which is why I think the stigma surrounding mental illness still exists.

 

+1 :  Count your blessings that you have never suffered from clinical depression.  I dont think selfishness is relevant to this discussion. 

[rkbabang]

With all due respect RKABang, I think you're out of your depth here. I think sentiment like yours is one of the reasons many people quietly suffer from depression. Thinking suicide is "selfish" is a complete misunderstanding of the disease. Selfish implies that one has control over how they're feeling, and that "gee, if they just pulled themselves up by their bootstraps, they could get through it." Why we think this attitude is OK when the brain is the organ in question is beyond me. If you continually felt at your worst, not for days or months, but years, how do you think you would feel? Seriously contemplate that. I don't think many people can, hence the adage, "you have to experience clinical depression to understand it."

 

Nevertheless, people will continue to use their "normal" brains to analyze a brain disorder, which is why I think the stigma surrounding mental illness still exists.

 

I freely admitted that I don't understand it.  Yet, your actions have consequences which effect other people regardless of what happens to be going on inside your head.    Maybe someone who has been tormented by voices in their head for years can't be blamed for killing 5 people at a park on a Sunday afternoon, but that doesn't mean it should be considered acceptable.  The fact is any culture which considers suicide a socially acceptable way to deal with depression has more suicide than other cultures.  If you disagree with that, you should look into the issue a little more.  You don't have to like it, but its true regardless of how that makes you feel.

 

 

 

[rkbabang]

As a matter of fact I hope I remember this thread when the 2014 suicide statistics come out, because I wouldn't be at all surprised to see an uptick in suicides directly following this high profile suicide where a much loved celebrity is getting all of this sympathy and understanding in the aftermath.

 

[Liberty]

If someone dies from brain cancer, you don't blame them. Severe depression can be just as out of the victim's control as brain cancer.

[radioheadok3]

With all due respect RKABang, I think you're out of your depth here. I think sentiment like yours is one of the reasons many people quietly suffer from depression. Thinking suicide is "selfish" is a complete misunderstanding of the disease. Selfish implies that one has control over how they're feeling, and that "gee, if they just pulled themselves up by their bootstraps, they could get through it." Why we think this attitude is OK when the brain is the organ in question is beyond me. If you continually felt at your worst, not for days or months, but years, how do you think you would feel? Seriously contemplate that. I don't think many people can, hence the adage, "you have to experience clinical depression to understand it."

 

Nevertheless, people will continue to use their "normal" brains to analyze a brain disorder, which is why I think the stigma surrounding mental illness still exists.

 

I freely admitted that I don't understand it.  Yet, your actions have consequences which effect other people regardless of what happens to be going on inside your head.    Maybe someone who has been tormented by voices in their head for years can't be blamed for killing 5 people at a park on a Sunday afternoon, but that doesn't mean it should be considered acceptable.  The fact is any culture which considers suicide a socially acceptable way to deal with depression has more suicide than other cultures.  If you disagree with that, you should look into the issue a little more.  You don't have to like it, but its true regardless of how that makes you feel.

 

Yes, because killing people is totally an appropriate analogue to suffering with severe depression. Nowhere did I say that suicide is, or should be, socially acceptable.  My point is that people who don't suffer from it have no idea how it feels, yet continually, as you've done, make assertions that convey a superior understanding. My only response is to look at the messages from both his wife and daughter. Nowhere do you see them claiming selfishness, just profound sadness. To me that shows a deeper understanding of the subject at hand.

[Uccmal]

With all due respect RKABang, I think you're out of your depth here. I think sentiment like yours is one of the reasons many people quietly suffer from depression. Thinking suicide is "selfish" is a complete misunderstanding of the disease. Selfish implies that one has control over how they're feeling, and that "gee, if they just pulled themselves up by their bootstraps, they could get through it." Why we think this attitude is OK when the brain is the organ in question is beyond me. If you continually felt at your worst, not for days or months, but years, how do you think you would feel? Seriously contemplate that. I don't think many people can, hence the adage, "you have to experience clinical depression to understand it."

 

Nevertheless, people will continue to use their "normal" brains to analyze a brain disorder, which is why I think the stigma surrounding mental illness still exists.

 

I freely admitted that I don't understand it.  Yet, your actions have consequences which effect other people regardless of what happens to be going on inside your head.    Maybe someone who has been tormented by voices in their head for years can't be blamed for killing 5 people at a park on a Sunday afternoon, but that doesn't mean it should be considered acceptable.  The fact is any culture which considers suicide a socially acceptable way to deal with depression has more suicide than other cultures.  If you disagree with that, you should look into the issue a little more.  You don't have to like it, but its true regardless of how that makes you feel.

 

Yes, because killing people is totally an appropriate analogue to suffering with severe depression. Nowhere did I say that suicide is, or should be, socially acceptable.  My point is that people who don't suffer from it have no idea how it feels, yet continually, as you've done, make assertions that convey a superior understanding. My only response is to look at the messages from both his wife and daughter. Nowhere do you see them claiming selfishness, just profound sadness. To me that shows a deeper understanding of the subject at hand.

 

Rkabang, I am trying to be as gentle as possible.  You obviously have no experience with depression or mental health issues.  Maybe you should just cease and desist at this point. 

[writser]

Suicide coverage leads to more suicides but you can't expect a mental patient to act rational as several others pointed out. If anything you should blame the media.

[rkbabang]

With all due respect RKABang, I think you're out of your depth here. I think sentiment like yours is one of the reasons many people quietly suffer from depression. Thinking suicide is "selfish" is a complete misunderstanding of the disease. Selfish implies that one has control over how they're feeling, and that "gee, if they just pulled themselves up by their bootstraps, they could get through it." Why we think this attitude is OK when the brain is the organ in question is beyond me. If you continually felt at your worst, not for days or months, but years, how do you think you would feel? Seriously contemplate that. I don't think many people can, hence the adage, "you have to experience clinical depression to understand it."

 

Nevertheless, people will continue to use their "normal" brains to analyze a brain disorder, which is why I think the stigma surrounding mental illness still exists.

 

I freely admitted that I don't understand it.  Yet, your actions have consequences which effect other people regardless of what happens to be going on inside your head.    Maybe someone who has been tormented by voices in their head for years can't be blamed for killing 5 people at a park on a Sunday afternoon, but that doesn't mean it should be considered acceptable.  The fact is any culture which considers suicide a socially acceptable way to deal with depression has more suicide than other cultures.  If you disagree with that, you should look into the issue a little more.  You don't have to like it, but its true regardless of how that makes you feel.

 

Yes, because killing people is totally an appropriate analogue to suffering with severe depression. Nowhere did I say that suicide is, or should be, socially acceptable.  My point is that people who don't suffer from it have no idea how it feels, yet continually, as you've done, make assertions that convey a superior understanding. My only response is to look at the messages from both his wife and daughter. Nowhere do you see them claiming selfishness, just profound sadness. To me that shows a deeper understanding of the subject at hand.

 

Rkabang, I am trying to be as gentle as possible.  You obviously have no experience with depression or mental health issues.  Maybe you should just cease and desist at this point. 

 

Now that is funny.  I'd be shocked if there is anyone here with more experience.  But I will stop here, because I am angering people.

 

[Partner24]

Well, I'll speak from experience. In my yound adulthood, I was a phone suicidal prevention care provider for a year. It was too tough to me.

 

I will not get into details, but suffice it to say that when someone was talking openly about suicide in a short to mid term period frame, the ultimate psychological saving rope that was teached to us was to help the person realize how bad it would be for people who cared about them. Sympathy and some kind of sane guilt was a powerful tool that helped to save lives. This was not meant to be a permanent solution, but a saving rope that was useful. Maybe things have changed over the last 15 years or so, but it did help.

 

So I don't know if rkbabang cultural social acceptation hypothesis is true, but it might be.

 

Feel true empathy about someone pain doesn't mean that you have to agree with what he does with it.

 

 

[Zorrofan]

Well, I'll speak from experience. In my yound adulthood, I was a phone suicidal prevention care provider for a year. It was too tough to me.

 

I will not get into details, but suffice it to say that when someone was talking openly about suicide in a short to mid term period frame, the ultimate psychological saving rope that was teached to us was to help the person realize how bad it would be for people who cared about them. Sympathy and some kind of sane guilt was a powerful tool that helped to save lives. This was not meant to be a permanent solution, but a saving rope that was useful. Maybe things have changed over the last 15 years or so, but it did help.

 

So I don't know if rkbabang cultural social acceptation hypothesis is true, but it might be.

 

Feel true empathy about someone pain doesn't mean that you have to agree with what he does with it.

 

+1

 

from John Donne

 

"No man is an Iland, intire of it selfe; every man is a peece of the Continent, a part of the maine; if a Clod bee washed away by the Sea, Europe is the lesse, as well as if a Promontorie were, as well as if a Mannor of thy friends or of thine owne were; any mans death diminishes me, because I am involved in Mankinde; And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; It tolls for thee."

[radioheadok3]

I'll end my contribution with this.. excerpted from a Business Insider piece after Shepard Smith used "coward" in his monologue last night.

 

"In his book “Myths About Suicide,” psychologist Thomas Joiner deconstructs the idea that suicide is cowardly or selfish.

 

“It certainly seems selfish from the outside,” Joiner told NPR in 2010. “I understand the sentiment. But the trouble is, in trying to reason about the suicidal mind from a non-suicidal place — that’s basically where most of these myths come from.

 

“What the suicidal person is thinking at the time is actually quite different from selfishness. Their idea is along the lines of, my death will be worth more than my life to others,” he added. “Now, if you ponder that sentiment, that’s not selfish at all. In fact, if anything it’s the opposite. It’s very selfless.”

 

Read more: http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/08/12/fox-news-host-labels-robin-williams-such-a-coward-over-alleged-suicide/#ixzz3AD3URPZo"

[Parsad]

For those that think suicide is difficult to understand, I would give a simple analogy that may be easier to grasp:

 

Remember the people jumping out of despair from the Twin Towers because fire and smoke raged around them, with absolutely no sense that anyone would have any chance of helping them get out of there?  Now imagine the same sort of despair in your own mind, FOR WHATEVER REASON, and you'll have some idea what compels people to suicide. 

 

Their pain or mental anguish, is as real as the physical manifestation of pain from fire, smoke, etc.  Just a sense of helplessness, at which point logic, a good night's sleep, therapy, love, fear and pretty much anything else will not ease the suffering.

 

When I was a young teenager, I thought of suicide because I was bullied in my early years of high school.  Thank goodness I never went through with it, and today I can't imagine that young fella actually having felt such despair where these thoughts had gone through my mind at that age.  But it did!  It was real!  And all the love from my parents, family, friends, the thought of leaving my little brother, a future life never lived...almost didn't matter.  Only taking one step forward, another day of dealing with the torment, allowed me to eventually get through it...and that's the only solace I can pass on to anyone who ever thought the same thing.

 

Can you imagine if I had killed myself then...because some punk ass bitches liked throwing me in a locker or harassing me on the way home?  A few years later my Dad died, so my 9 year-old brother would have been raised solely by our mother.  I would never have met Buffett or Prem.  This board would not exist.  Alnesh would be working at some large accounting firm because he would not have gone out on his own or started Corner Market Capital with me.  All of the birthdays, Christmases, dinners, lunches, friends...old and new...none of it would have happened.  It really is a wonderful life!  But some people just forget, because they are in just so much pain and can't see through it at the moment.  So, be soft in your judgments of those people!     

 

Cheers!

[yadayada]

hahaha that 'cheers!' at the end really cracked me up.

[Parsad]

hahaha that 'cheers!' at the end really cracked me up.

 

Maybe that's what gets me through the day after dealing with you assholes!  ;D  Cheers!

[stylized_fact]

The debate here reminds me of the feud between Fama and Shiller and hints that psychiatry is an even more dismal science than economics. Suicide rates have grown noticeably in the US over the past ten years and now outpace automobile deaths. Improving our understanding of addiction, depression and suicide should be a higher priority for society. I'm somewhat reluctant to advocate for increased funding of research, as institutional progress has been so limited (is it similar to programs of foreign aid?). It doesn't get around the fact that these are very challenging problems: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/22/science/650-million-psychiatric-research.html

[ERICOPOLY]

Can you imagine if I had killed myself then...because some punk ass bitches liked throwing me in a locker or harassing me on the way home? 

 

I would be working at Microsoft still.  So there's one life you've changed.  I can't do this without the help of your board.  I needed ideas to cheat off of.

 

I had a similar experience and similar thoughts in 7th grade. 

 

[james22]

http://www.cracked.com/quick-fixes/robin-williams-why-funny-people-kill-themselves/

[vishnu]

I was contemplating suicide recently due to some personal issue. Read book by Albert Ellis on REBT. I was quickly out of trouble. I dont understand why psychologist fight each other about Rogerian therapy / Mindful therapy etc.. I was looking for anything quick and effective. REBT helped a lot and most of the materials are freely available in net too.

If anyone of family or friends are in trouble , I highly suggest REBT by Albert Ellis and you can visit this site http://www.threeminutetherapy.com/

[Parsad]

I was contemplating suicide recently due to some personal issue. Read book by Albert Ellis on REBT. I was quickly out of trouble. I dont understand why psychologist fight each other about Rogerian therapy / Mindful therapy etc.. I was looking for anything quick and effective. REBT helped a lot and most of the materials are freely available in net too.

If anyone of family or friends are in trouble , I highly suggest REBT by Albert Ellis and you can visit this site http://www.threeminutetherapy.com/

 

Hi Vishnu,

 

Glad it worked for you and you were able to move forward! 

 

All the best,

 

Sanjeev

[augustabound]

Can you imagine if I had killed myself then...because some punk ass bitches liked throwing me in a locker or harassing me on the way home? 

 

I would be working at Microsoft still.  So there's one life you've changed.  I can't do this without the help of your board.  I needed ideas to cheat off of.

 

Having not seen the movie but I'm familiar with the term, The Butterfly Effect. 

Someone got your job at Microsoft, their family's life changed, your family's life changed.....

 

I think more than a few investing styles have been affected by this board (for the better) and CBF has members worldwide. Like Eric's example, some may retire sooner, take a different path in life both personal and career because of the financial freedom.

 

Also think about all the "meet ups" not just for Berkshire or Fairfax meetings but now Pabrai/Dhando and all the other regional meet ups.

[randomep]

hahaha that 'cheers!' at the end really cracked me up.

 

Maybe that's what gets me through the day after dealing with you assholes!  ;D  Cheers!

 

Well this asshole appreciates that you do......