Blow Up the Tax Code and Start Over

[rkbabang]

What else would you call forcing someone to pay you money with a gun to their head?

 

I mean, don't get me wrong. I don't believe we'll ever make it to a taxless state and I fully agree with, and support, progressive taxation if taxation is to exist, but having another name for an activity just because the government does it seems wrong. 

 

If you don't pay your taxes, you don't simply lose the benefits they buy. You're thrown in jail. The government is taking something that is yours and using coercive methods to achieve it - if anyone else did that it would be called theft, but because it's the government holding the gun it's something else?

 

I guess I should also clarify. Not all taxes are theft. Just the current form of income tax and how the U.S. gov't aims to collect. A VAT tax, as I supported earlier, would only tax those who purchase items. If you don't want to pay the tax, you don't get the item. Just like any other transaction. The whole transaction is voluntary and nobody goes to jail for deciding not to buy items (and thus avoid the tax) like you do now if you avoid your income taxes.

 

You can have a tax system that doesn't rely on organized theft, but as long as the government is taking something from you from a non-voluntary transaction that uses coercive forces and threats of violence, then I think it's pretty fair to call it theft.

 

I disagree.  I wish to buy something, someone else wishes to sell it.  Neither of us wish to pay the tax, but I pay the tax to prevent violence from being used against me.  That is theft.    If the mob takes a percentage of a merchants sales, and the merchant passes on the cost to the customer, this would work the exact same way as a sales tax.  If nothing is purchased no tax is paid.  It is still theft.

[rkbabang]

We went through this before.

 

It is not theft: we live in (somewhat) democracy and we vote for taxes. (Actually, I am taxed without representation and I am still very happy with the tax system in US.). The fact that you are voting against does not make it a theft. Look up the definition of democracy.

 

I'd be very happy for you and other anarcho-whatevers to go and establish your utopia somewhere. If it was successful maybe others would follow.

 

Or start a party and try to persuade other people to vote against taxes. Good luck.

 

So far what I hear is just more of this:

 

I know you have this magic word "democracy" which makes things like theft and murder legitimate as long you can convince a majority in an area to agree.

 

Let's go back to the man robbing you at the ATM.  If there were 2 men and only you, a vote would come up 2 to 1 that you need to give them your money.  Would that make it not theft?  No?  What about 3 or 4 men robbing you at the ATM?  If not what number turns theft into taxation?  Certainly half+1 of the voters in your town makes theft into taxation.  There are some pretty small towns in the country so it apparently doesn't take many people to make might into right.

 

[APG12]

We went through this before.

 

It is not theft: we live in (somewhat) democracy and we vote for taxes. (Actually, I am taxed without representation and I am still very happy with the tax system in US.). The fact that you are voting against does not make it a theft. Look up the definition of democracy.

 

I'd be very happy for you and other anarcho-whatevers to go and establish your utopia somewhere. If it was successful maybe others would follow.

 

Or start a party and try to persuade other people to vote against taxes. Good luck.

 

So far what I hear is just more of this:

 

I know you have this magic word "democracy" which makes things like theft and murder legitimate as long you can convince a majority in an area to agree.

 

Let's go back to the man robbing you at the ATM.  If there were 2 men and only you, a vote would come up 2 to 1 that you need to give them your money.  Would that make it not theft?  No?  What about 3 or 4 men robbing you at the ATM?  If not what number turns theft into taxation?  Certainly half+1 of the voters in your town makes theft into taxation.  There are some pretty small towns in the country so it apparently doesn't take many people to make might into right.

 

This is why the founding fathers of America were ardent critics of democracy, which is simply mob rule. The US was founded as a republic because it guaranteed certain freedoms of action (individual rights) and citizens could vote only on a very delimited set of issues regarding how rights are protected. Hamilton's argument against the Bill of Rights was that specification of protected rights implies that other rights are not protected. That's exactly the situation we have today where all sorts of new rights are invented- rights that aren't freedoms to act but guarantees of the products of other's labor. The US government now violates many individual rights willy nilly but rights like freedom of speech and religion are given extra consideration as if they're distinct from other individual rights.

[rkbabang]

This is why the founding fathers of America were ardent critics of democracy, which is simply mob rule. The US was founded as a republic because it guaranteed certain freedoms of action (individual rights) and citizens could vote only on a very delimited set of issues regarding how rights are protected. Hamilton's argument against the Bill of Rights was that specification of protected rights implies that other rights are not protected. That's exactly the situation we have today where all sorts of new rights are invented- rights that aren't freedoms to act but guarantees of the products of other's labor. The US government now violates many individual rights willy nilly but rights like freedom of speech and religion are given extra consideration as if they're distinct from other individual rights.

 

As Lysander Spooner said "But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain - that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case it is unfit to exist.”

 

[wachtwoord]

I'd be very happy for you and other anarcho-whatevers to go and establish your utopia somewhere.

 

Okay. Where?

 

What have the taxes ever done for us?

 

 

http://i62.tinypic.com/2e5p8bn.jpg

[Jurgis]

I'd be very happy for you and other anarcho-whatevers to go and establish your utopia somewhere.

 

Okay. Where?

 

 

I thought that you guys had the answers. Why are you asking a socialist who likes it the way it is?

 

You've got at least five people here who agree with you. They are all probably pretty rich this being CoBF. Presumably you can find more rich and educated people who agree with you.

 

Find some poor country that would sell you an island or something.

 

I'll visit when you guys have that futuristic thing with robo dogs. You can even charge me admission (just don't call it a tax, no no).

[wachtwoord]

I'd be very happy for you and other anarcho-whatevers to go and establish your utopia somewhere.

 

Okay. Where?

 

 

I thought that you guys had the answers. Why are you asking a socialist who likes it the way it is?

 

You've got at least five people here who agree with you. They are all probably pretty rich this being CoBF. Presumably you can find more rich and educated people who agree with you.

 

Find some poor country that would sell you an island or something.

 

I'll visit when you guys have that futuristic thing with robo dogs. You can even charge me admission (just don't call it a tax, no no).

 

Many tried, no-one will sell even a desolate rock at an insane valuation if it means giving up sovereignty of that rock. War is the only way to start something outside of existing sovereignty it seems :(

[Hielko]

I'd be very happy for you and other anarcho-whatevers to go and establish your utopia somewhere.

 

Okay. Where?

 

You can take the Sealand option

 

I thought that you guys had the answers. Why are you asking a socialist who likes it the way it is?

 

You've got at least five people here who agree with you. They are all probably pretty rich this being CoBF. Presumably you can find more rich and educated people who agree with you.

 

Find some poor country that would sell you an island or something.

 

I'll visit when you guys have that futuristic thing with robo dogs. You can even charge me admission (just don't call it a tax, no no).

 

Many tried, no-one will sell even a desolate rock at an insane valuation if it means giving up sovereignty of that rock. War is the only way to start something outside of existing sovereignty it seems :(

[wachtwoord]

Hielko: Sealand isn't recognized by any state and battles have been fought.

[rkbabang]

The reason I moved to New Hampshire 4 years ago:  https://freestateproject.org/

[wachtwoord]

Live free or die!

[rkbabang]

Live free or die!

 

:)

http://mediad.publicbroadcasting.net/p/nhpr/files/201505/new-hampshire-welcome-sign.jpg

 

This was the article which kicked off the idea of the Free State Project in July of 2001:

Announcement:The Free State Project

[ERICOPOLY]

The country keeps it's resources to itself (there is a wide disparity of incomes throughout the world).  The nation does not willingly let other nations come and take things away.  You have very poor nations that look nothing like the US. 

 

The nation is never going to willingly cough up it's resources to spread around the rest of the world under the argument that it's unfair to be born in the US and automatically dealt such a great advantage.

 

I just find it somewhat ironic that the citizens of this nation think it's unfair for some people to be born with huge advantages over others and that the situation must be equalized.  Just imagine the rude shock if that really happened (if the assets of America were equalized with the rest of the world population).

[wachtwoord]

Someone's gotta lose when someone wins.

 

Also equalization takes away all stimulation for doing the best you can.

[APG12]

The country keeps it's resources to itself (there is a wide disparity of incomes throughout the world).  The nation does not willingly let other nations come and take things away.  You have very poor nations that look nothing like the US. 

 

The nation is never going to willingly cough up it's resources to spread around the rest of the world under the argument that it's unfair to be born in the US and automatically dealt such a great advantage.

 

I just find it somewhat ironic that the citizens of this nation think it's unfair for some people to be born with huge advantages over others and that the situation must be equalized.  Just imagine the rude shock if that really happened (if the assets of America were equalized with the rest of the world population).

 

I think that is an instance of the same phenomenon you see in a lot of different areas of life. Altruism and sacrifice are implicitly held as a moral ideal and self interest is regarded as distasteful at best. But since altruism is impossible to practice in a principled fashion, you get get a bifurcation between people's ideals and their actions. Most people think they should be Mother Teresa but they don't actually want to be washing feet in India anymore than they want to commit suicide.

[rkbabang]

The country keeps it's resources to itself (there is a wide disparity of incomes throughout the world).  The nation does not willingly let other nations come and take things away.  You have very poor nations that look nothing like the US. 

 

The nation is never going to willingly cough up it's resources to spread around the rest of the world under the argument that it's unfair to be born in the US and automatically dealt such a great advantage.

 

I just find it somewhat ironic that the citizens of this nation think it's unfair for some people to be born with huge advantages over others and that the situation must be equalized.  Just imagine the rude shock if that really happened (if the assets of America were equalized with the rest of the world population).

 

I think that is an instance of the same phenomenon you see in a lot of different areas of life. Altruism and sacrifice are implicitly held as a moral ideal and self interest is regarded as distasteful at best. But since altruism is impossible to practice in a principled fashion, you get get a bifurcation between people's ideals and their actions. Most people think they should be Mother Teresa but they don't actually want to be washing feet in India anymore than they want to commit suicide.

 

The last thing the world needs is everyone to actually want to be Mother Teresa (as opposed to just saying that and feeling guilty because they don't really want it).  Nothing corrupts the soul more than enjoying the fact that people are sick and starving so that you can feel virtuous taking care of them.  I'll take a world full of greedy capitalists anyday.

 

[Jurgis]

The last thing the world needs is everyone to actually want to be Mother Teresa (as opposed to just saying that and feeling guilty because they don't really want it).  Nothing corrupts the soul more than enjoying the fact that people are sick and starving so that you can feel virtuous taking care of them.  I'll take a world full of greedy capitalists anyday.

 

What a nice mischaracterization of someone trying to be Mother Theresa. No, it's not about "enjoying the fact that people are sick and starving so that you can feel virtuous taking care of them". It is actually about helping people who are sick and starving.

[rkbabang]

The last thing the world needs is everyone to actually want to be Mother Teresa (as opposed to just saying that and feeling guilty because they don't really want it).  Nothing corrupts the soul more than enjoying the fact that people are sick and starving so that you can feel virtuous taking care of them.  I'll take a world full of greedy capitalists anyday.

 

What a nice mischaracterization of someone trying to be Mother Theresa. No, it's not about "enjoying the fact that people are sick and starving so that you can feel virtuous taking care of them". It is actually about helping people who are sick and starving.

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/04/mother-teresa-myth_n_2805697.html

[Jurgis]

I am aware about the criticism of Mother Teresa.

 

Your post implies that everyone who tries to be Mother Teresa is going to do the same things she is criticized for. That's very unlikely.

[rkbabang]

I am aware about the criticism of Mother Teresa.

 

Your post implies that everyone who tries to be Mother Teresa is going to do the same things she is criticized for. That's very unlikely.

 

How many people try to be Mother Teresa?  It is rare, because, as APG12 pointed out, it is impossible to be principledly altruistic, and I think most people sense this even if not consciously.  I think anyone who does dedicate their entire lives to the downtrodden would turn out like Mother Teresa.  The capitalists helps the economy, which helps the downtrodden, by helping himself.  Thus I'd rather have a world full of greedy capitalists than a world full of Mother Teresa wannabees.

 

[Jurgis]

The capitalists helps the economy, which helps the downtrodden, by helping himself.

 

Yeah, sure. Tell this to all the people who died in the capitalist mines, factories and farmfields.

[wachtwoord]

The capitalists helps the economy, which helps the downtrodden, by helping himself.

 

Yeah, sure. Tell this to all the people who died in the capitalist mines, factories and farmfields.

 

Where they worked voluntarily.

[RichardGibbons]

Yeah, sure. Tell this to all the people who died in the capitalist mines, factories and farmfields.

 

Where they worked voluntarily.

 

... as it was their only alternative to starving to death in the streets in a cold, capitalist world where they lost the genetic lottery.

 

(No idea if this is true or not. I just like "build the sentence" games.)

[Jurgis]

Yeah, sure. Tell this to all the people who died in the capitalist mines, factories and farmfields.

 

Where they worked voluntarily.

 

... as it was their only alternative to starving to death in the streets in a cold, capitalist world where they lost the genetic lottery.

 

(No idea if this is true or not. I just like "build the sentence" games.)

 

I'll just +1 this one. ;)

[wachtwoord]

Yeah, sure. Tell this to all the people who died in the capitalist mines, factories and farmfields.

 

Where they worked voluntarily.

 

... as it was their only alternative to starving to death in the streets in a cold, capitalist world where they lost the genetic lottery.

 

(No idea if this is true or not. I just like "build the sentence" games.)

 

I'll just +1 this one. ;)

 

That's not their responsibility. Life is not fair and by trying to make it fair you make it even more unfair.

 

I call it being popular by spending someone else's money.