GMAT/MBA

[jay21]

I am thinking about applying to MBA programs. If you are currently enrolled in an MBA program or finished one, I would love to hear your experiences.

 

As I am just starting the process I need advice on the GMAT. What are the best prep books and study techniques?

 

Also, may target school right now is Columbia so any alumni please DM as I would like to hear from you. Thanks.

[Andy Dufresne]

Jay

 

It's a big decision but if you want good input you need to give us some color - what type of career have you had so far and what do you want to do after your MBA and where (e.g. I'm a Big4 Auditor with a 3.7 finance/accounting degree from X and I want to do investment banking in NYC) - based on this we might be able to give you better answers.

 

In general, as someone with an MBA, I'd say it very much depends on the above - you might not need an MBA at all or it may even be detrimental, it can also be a great time ...

[jay21]

Jay

 

It's a big decision but if you want good input you need to give us some color - what type of career have you had so far and what do you want to do after your MBA and where (e.g. I'm a Big4 Auditor with a 3.7 finance/accounting degree from X and I want to do investment banking in NYC) - based on this we might be able to give you better answers.

 

In general, as someone with an MBA, I'd say it very much depends on the above - you might not need an MBA at all or it may even be detrimental, it can also be a great time ...

 

You basically nailed it on the head.

 

Structured Products/Valuation at a Big4 for 4 years with a 3.6 accting degree from villanova. I want to work on the buyside (LBOs or distressed credit being my top choices) but am interested in research and consulting in NYC (flexible on geography). Obviously I would prefer to do that without having to go to school but I think I need an mba from a top program to make that switch.

 

As I mentioned I have not taken the GMAT but I think I need to score mid700s to get there as well, which is possible (I hope).

 

Passed the CPA and CFA Level 2 if that makes much of a difference. Trying to add a few extracurriculars as well and should be starting a mentoring program for nyc high school students in Sept. Any advice on anything I can do to improve my competitiveness would be great.

[merkhet]

I personally think the prep book is less important than doing a bunch of practice tests.

 

I used the NOVA prep books. They were fine. Took it twice. Got a 750 both times.

[jay21]

I personally think the prep book is less important than doing a bunch of practice tests.

 

I used the NOVA prep books. They were fine. Took it twice. Got a 750 both times.

 

I can be a little zealous about preparation. Obviously, I agree that practice tests and questions are most important but I feel like learning common questions, going over grammar, problem structure etc is a little helpful? Or no? Just crush practice tests?

[Gamecock-YT]

I did the Manhattan GMAT prep, bought the guides 2nd hand via ebay. But like someone else said, I'd probably just keep doing practice tests after getting the basics down.

 

As for the MBA experience, I dropped out after 2 semesters. A total waste of time. I did a finance concentration after doing an undergrad in finance. After taking two finances classes (including the highest level class they offered, concurrently no less) I probably learned maybe 1/3 of a semester of new material. I probably would've been better off doing an MiF.

 

Only good thing that became of the experience was an essay by Warren Buffett on the airline industry which launched my interest in value investing.

[merkhet]

I personally think the prep book is less important than doing a bunch of practice tests.

 

I used the NOVA prep books. They were fine. Took it twice. Got a 750 both times.

 

I can be a little zealous about preparation. Obviously, I agree that practice tests and questions are most important but I feel like learning common questions, going over grammar, problem structure etc is a little helpful? Or no? Just crush practice tests?

 

I feel like, for most people on this forum, more time on practice tests to get a "feel" for the exam (for lack of a more precise word) is more important than spending a bunch of time on the test strategies. Read one book on the strategies and then practice, practice, practice.

[jay21]

I did the Manhattan GMAT prep, bought the guides 2nd hand via ebay. But like someone else said, I'd probably just keep doing practice tests after getting the basics down.

 

As for the MBA experience, I dropped out after 2 semesters. A total waste of time. I did a finance concentration after doing an undergrad in finance. After taking two finances classes (including the highest level class they offered, concurrently no less) I probably learned maybe 1/3 of a semester of new material. I probably would've been better off doing an MiF.

 

Only good thing that became of the experience was an essay by Warren Buffett on the airline industry which launched my interest in value investing.

 

Learning isn't the primary purpose; its networking and position myself to do something other than what I am doing now. Also, looking forward to meeting other bright, hard working people in finance/business.

[oddballstocks]

I did the Manhattan GMAT prep, bought the guides 2nd hand via ebay. But like someone else said, I'd probably just keep doing practice tests after getting the basics down.

 

As for the MBA experience, I dropped out after 2 semesters. A total waste of time. I did a finance concentration after doing an undergrad in finance. After taking two finances classes (including the highest level class they offered, concurrently no less) I probably learned maybe 1/3 of a semester of new material. I probably would've been better off doing an MiF.

 

Only good thing that became of the experience was an essay by Warren Buffett on the airline industry which launched my interest in value investing.

 

Learning isn't the primary purpose; its networking and position myself to do something other than what I am doing now. Also, looking forward to meeting other bright, hard working people in finance/business.

 

A very successful and well connected friend told me years ago: "An MBA is where you buy your network, buy the best you can."  You are already aware of this, which is good.

 

Best of luck! Just thinking about tests and studying gives me anxiety...let's just say I'm glad success in life doesn't depend on GPA...to all of you studious individuals I always envied you.

[Andy Dufresne]

Jay

 

It's a big decision but if you want good input you need to give us some color - what type of career have you had so far and what do you want to do after your MBA and where (e.g. I'm a Big4 Auditor with a 3.7 finance/accounting degree from X and I want to do investment banking in NYC) - based on this we might be able to give you better answers.

 

In general, as someone with an MBA, I'd say it very much depends on the above - you might not need an MBA at all or it may even be detrimental, it can also be a great time ...

 

You basically nailed it on the head.

 

Structured Products/Valuation at a Big4 for 4 years with a 3.6 accting degree from villanova. I want to work on the buyside (LBOs or distressed credit being my top choices) but am interested in research and consulting in NYC (flexible on geography). Obviously I would prefer to do that without having to go to school but I think I need an mba from a top program to make that switch.

 

As I mentioned I have not taken the GMAT but I think I need to score mid700s to get there as well, which is possible (I hope).

 

Passed the CPA and CFA Level 2 if that makes much of a difference. Trying to add a few extracurriculars as well and should be starting a mentoring program for nyc high school students in Sept. Any advice on anything I can do to improve my competitiveness would be great.

 

Manhattan GMAT is indeed good. For the GMAT my best advice is to focus on the Verbal because its where you can push up your relative score the most - e.g. you might "only" score 47 or 48 (raw score) on the Quant section, but if you get a 44 or 45 on the Verbal you'll have a 730+ GMAT because most test-takers aren't native speakera and the 99th % for verbal in 42 IIRC while your raw score can go up to 51. If you can get a 49 Q or above then a 44-45 V will get you a 770+ score.

 

In any case, I'd say that anything above a 730 with a good balance of V and Q will be good, though if you can break 760 it will help with known GMAT whore schools, e.g. Columbia, and might help you land a good scholarship.

 

For ECs, while it's laudable you'll tutor, most elite programs will just see this as resume building, so unless you can really make a clear impact and get yourself in the newspaper or noticed by someone there (preferably an alum of your target school) it might not make a difference. CPA and CFA L2 are nice, but any very good to elite MBA will mainly judge you by how well you've done so far in your career (promotions, direct reports, salary, yada yada) and how convincing your story sounds, i.e. will you be an employable graduate. I'd also try to develop an interest and ability in a foreign language - its always in short supply!

 

Spend time talking to people who've gone to the programs you are focusing on - it will help you later as they'll be able to connect you to others / help you along the way. Also do yourself a favor and visit campuses to get their vibe and meet current students. This is mostly about you and how you'll fit in and it will show in your essays if you can really connect with a place - it resonates.

 

Beyond these points, it's my personal opinion, so:

 

1. With your stats I'd say H/S are a very long shot, W, Col, MIT and Chicago you have a chance with good execution, NYU and K are IMHO more quirky so more of a toss up though you might get in.

 

2. Don't go into debt - if you have a full ride at a top 15 and nothing from a top 5, and the top 15 places people / has recruiters from your target employers, go with the $$$. People get into GS and McK from all over (I worked at the latter, so I'm not just talking out of my rear end ...)

 

If you are looking at buy side investing post MBA then Col and Chicago are your best bets after H/S/W, though don't discount Yale, especially with $$$.

 

Feel free to PM if you want

 

Cheers

 

Andy

[abitofvalue]

I used Kaplan and thought they were good enough.. but like everyone else has said do practise tests and once you are averaging a score you are happy with go give the test. 

 

Not sure adding mentoring etc if you plan to apply this year will work - could come across as transparently insincere.  if you are applying later on its a good thing to get started sooner rather than later.

 

As far as other stuff goes - i think knowing what you want at the end is half the battle.  with only a Big-4 valuation background, you should be aware that getting to an LBO fund / distressed debt fund straight from an will be hard.  I would reach out to individuals who have the job you want and talk to them to see if an MBA will be enough.  You may find that the MBA needs to be a step - i.e. go Big 4 Valuation --> MBA --> Restructuring investment banking --> Distressed debt fund. Then you have to decide if its worth it. 

 

Don't be shy about reaching out to random individuals - ppl are generally nice and willing to help. besides, as long as you are polite - what's the worse that will happen - they will say sorry no time.

 

 

[jay21]

I used Kaplan and thought they were good enough.. but like everyone else has said do practise tests and once you are averaging a score you are happy with go give the test. 

 

Not sure adding mentoring etc if you plan to apply this year will work - could come across as transparently insincere.  if you are applying later on its a good thing to get started sooner rather than later.

 

As far as other stuff goes - i think knowing what you want at the end is half the battle.  with only a Big-4 valuation background, you should be aware that getting to an LBO fund / distressed debt fund straight from an will be hard.  I would reach out to individuals who have the job you want and talk to them to see if an MBA will be enough.  You may find that the MBA needs to be a step - i.e. go Big 4 Valuation --> MBA --> Restructuring investment banking --> Distressed debt fund. Then you have to decide if its worth it. 

 

Don't be shy about reaching out to random individuals - ppl are generally nice and willing to help. besides, as long as you are polite - what's the worse that will happen - they will say sorry no time.

 

Agree with a lot of what you said.

 

Mentoring: I see your point. It's a four year commitment so I hope it doesn't come across as transparent. I am doing irrespective of if I end up applying anywhere.

 

Career Path: Definite consideration. I was just talking with someone and they mentioned something similar. PE/HF usually recruit from IB so I may need another step in my path.

 

Reaching Out: Have been doing this mainly through alumni on LinkedIn. I'm surprised at some that have responded. I don't know too many people from elite MBAs/IBs/PE etc. Trying to get to know some ppl from here and twitter as well who may have that background.

[jay21]

I personally think the prep book is less important than doing a bunch of practice tests.

 

I used the NOVA prep books. They were fine. Took it twice. Got a 750 both times.

 

I took about 50 practice questions over the last 2 days and agree that "studying" isn't going to be too helpful other than to do a quick a review of grammar and elementary math concepts. Guess I just have to find the best GMAT practice tests. I think these >$500 courses might be a little overkill.

 

Thanks for the feedback so far everyone. It's really helpful

[jay21]

Took the mba.com prep test 1 and got a 730 which left me really excited. Then I took a mock from Magoosh and got a 640...so yeah not so excited anymore.

 

If anyone else is thinking about taking the test, the biggest surprise for me is how little time I find myself having for quant. You really need to recognize how to approach the problem very quickly.

[constructive]

One thing I would suggest would be to write the resume that you want to have, 6 months or a year from now. And then go make those goals happen.

 

Last year I took 2 courses at Harvard Extension School, CAIA Levels 1 & 2 and the Series 65 and successfully got into Oxford's MBA program.

 

Another thing that may be helpful is to write a personal statement now before writing any of your essays. That will help you approach the essays strategically, not just be reactive to the essay prompts.

 

I'd be willing to take a look at your resume and essays if you send me a message.

[rb]

In regards to GMAT prep, I used the GMAT books and Veritas Prep which I found to be exceptionally good. I ended up with a 760 which was good enough to get me into a top school.

 

On whether to do the MBA, I can tell you that it's a pretty risky proposition. The field you want to get into is tough even with an MBA from a top school. It's also a pretty small field so there's not gonna be enough positions even for all the qualified people that want to get in. The recruiting numbers across the board are also horrible compared to the 2000s. Lot of people from my program pretty much went back to what they were doing before.

 

The other part to consider is that you will have to go to a top school to be worth anything. That is going to be very expensive. Yes you'll meet some great people and some not so great (the douche factor is strong in MBA programs) and you will get some access. But I think if you are proactive about life and your career you can get those connections with less expense and less hassle.

[jay21]

But I think if you are proactive about life and your career you can get those connections with less expense and less hassle.

 

I believe I am but it's been tough generating those types of connections. Any advice?

[rb]

But I think if you are proactive about life and your career you can get those connections with less expense and less hassle.

 

I believe I am but it's been tough generating those types of connections. Any advice?

Well, ok... let me start by giving you a bit of background on the network/connections of an MBA program. The most important network and connections you will build is with people in your class and the won't be that many (half of all the people in these programs are either idiots or people you want nothing to do with). Now these connections are not going to come in handy to you in the short term because they're in your situation as well. That's for further down the road.

 

Now the schools will parade their alumni network and say that you have access to all these people. Now that's only 1/4 true. They will give you access to a long list of emails but won't facilitate more than that. However people that you actually want to speak to you can find their email addresses anyway, linkedin or other public sources. These people are only marginally more willing to talk to you if you're an alumni of their alma matter. Generally from what I've seen if they wanna talk they talk to anyone, if they don't wanna talk, it doesn't matter that you went to their school.

 

Now about meeting people without the program. Keep in mind that I'm not really a great networker so this isn't exactly expert advice. But this is what I'd say: time and money. An MBA from a top school will cost you 2 years and 400-500k. If God forbid you won't find a job going out of it (I know you're probably type A and think that can't happen to you but I've seen it happen to very talented people) the cost can climb up to one million.

 

My point was that you can get the connections by spending less time and less money than an MBA but you will have to spend time and money. Think about it. $100k can buy a lot of drinks. And something as simple as buying drinks can make I very easy to make connections. Instead of giving it to some school, put it aside as a sort of investment fund for your career. Then keep in mind that there are important people everywhere. For example you're on this board. I can guarantee you that there are some very important and influential people around here (though the probably don't advertise it). You can go to some of the meets and buy some drinks. Also if you post some interesting ideas it'll probably go a long way to your reputation if someone important is present.

 

That's where my afore mentioned proactivity comes in - You'll have to get involved in things -- some of them will pan out others will not. I didn't say it was easy. But B-school isn't either. And don't think they will open the doors to the forbidden treasure of networking. All they really give you is a list of names and emails. The rest is up to you.

 

It's late and I hope this makes some sense. If it doesn't or you have more questions, just ask.

 

 

[jay21]

Thanks for the responses.

 

In terms of networking, I have been going the LinkedIn route and trying to generate meetings that way with alumni. I have had a few good responses and quite a few no responses. I met up with one of my ex-coworkers who was able move into structuring at an IB. He told me it is very much like a "club" where you need someone to vouch for you to make the transition (he also said his group just made two new hires so couldn't really help me out). He almost didn't get the job and the group had to basically have a committee meeting to approve hiring someone from a "non-traditional (i.e. non-IB)" background.

 

The point I am trying to make is that it is difficult to break into a top firm in a front office position strictly from networking.

 

Also - sometimes you will meet people to talk but it stops there. It's very hard to meet for drinks for a few times and then have someone vouch for you in the near term, imo. But on this point, I concede I may be doing it wrong. Happy to hear other people's successful networking stories and how they went from drinks/meeting to getting someone to help them land a job.

 

meiroy - can you elaborate specifically on "take it out there and practice it". What specific steps do you think I should take? Assume I want to get into a  fund, PE, or mgmt consulting as I would think that would be relevant in terms of who I should reach out to, what events to attend, etc.

 

rb - agree, and I am trying that route but it's tough to know if you are making progress (I guess the counter is that an mba is an illusion of progress networking wise as I will be in the same boat as now. the recruiting process would be different though). Also agree - just as there aren't any Holy Grails in life and investing, I do not expect an MBA to be a Holy Grail in networking.

[intothebreach]

Just caught this thread I thought I would add my 2 cents as it is something I've been asked quite a few times.

 

For background: I did an intensive, 1-year, MBA (in Canada). And intensive it really was due to the 1-year program and the team-based approach of the program (best advice I received going in was: when it looks like things are slowing down, just don't!)

 

As far as I'm concerned doing an MBA is such a commitment that you need to want to be doing it for the experience and because you are interested in the topics to be studied (you probably are since you hang out around here on CoBF). Folks in my class that did it as a fall back because some previous line of work/study did not pan out found the year to be very difficult and very long. Also, those that were in a mariage were actually advised to include their partner in the decision because it can actually become a significant strain on a relationship, especially since you end up disappearing for weeks at a time just swamped with studying and interviewing (if you so choose to pursue that last part).

 

As others have already said, the value of an MBA lies as much in who you get to know, share war stories and build memories with, and learn from, as well as the formal training and "stamp" that represent the value of the program. In the end, it is a life experience that takes up 1-2 years of your life, so make sure you are interested enough for that to be worthwhile.

 

So in the end, the only good answer is that it really depends on what you want to achieve. For my part, I would not recommend a part-time program, unless someone is doing it purely for the academic knowledge or absolutely needs to work at the same time. And if you think about a significant career transition, I would suggest a two-year program, where you can use the in-between summer to get an internship and build some experience in you new field (or test something out).

 

I ended up doing 1-year as a compromise to minimize the out of pocket expenses while still going to a good school, and because I knew that it would get me where I was going (consulting). However, what I had not anticipated was that I liked it so much that I would have liked to extend it a bit more. Having said that, a 1-year program sounds like half, but is actually only 4 months less than a regular 2-year program, with less time to digest stuff, and typically a lot less course options.

 

Then you need to look at economics: a top MBA program in US schools can pay for itself if you end up in the lines of work that recognize this value and are difficult to get into without such a degree. Otherwise, it can be a better option to go with a program that cost less (unless you manage to get a scholarship).

 

As for the GMAT, I did really well despite English not being my prime language just by preparing myself with one of those books available in most business bookstores (I remember getting all theses invitation from US-based schools that were willing to waived the inscription fees--not the tuition mind you--just to increase their GMAT average!)  You will want to be very familiar with the types of questions (the data sufficiency ones can eat up a lot of time just trying to understand the questions), brush up on basics such as algebra and know how to structure an argument in writing. You can find books that include both the prep material as well as a few practice tests. If you do practice tests, try to do them in the time allowed at the actual exam.

 

Best of luck if you decide to take the plunge!

[Palantir]

Now about meeting people without the program. Keep in mind that I'm not really a great networker so this isn't exactly expert advice. But this is what I'd say: time and money. An MBA from a top school will cost you 2 years and 400-500k.

 

Questionable.

[thepupil]

Now about meeting people without the program. Keep in mind that I'm not really a great networker so this isn't exactly expert advice. But this is what I'd say: time and money. An MBA from a top school will cost you 2 years and 400-500k.

 

Questionable.

 

why is that questionable? they cost $70K / year in tuition & fees so that's $140K. Many are in expensive cities and lots of the networking involves international trips and expensive outings with your fellow yuppie scum so living costs are not low; you party like 5 nights/week; it's part of the curriculum.

 

Then you have foregone comp of at least $100K / year but possibly far more (if you are in line with the profile of most top biz school attendees it can easily be $200K/year), so that's $340K-$540K total.

 

Now I'm not counting internship comp, which is probably $150K+ prorated for like 9 weeks, so that may reduce it a bit, but the breakeven is high. For many, it may still be worth it.

[rb]

Now about meeting people without the program. Keep in mind that I'm not really a great networker so this isn't exactly expert advice. But this is what I'd say: time and money. An MBA from a top school will cost you 2 years and 400-500k.

 

Questionable.

From a top school yea, between tuition, living expenses (in top school cities that is high), always eating out cause you have no time, "networking" with classmates aka going out drinking (again at top schools that means bottle service at fancy clubs), class trips, networking events, and a big one - lost income. That adds up really quick. You'll be surprised how fast you get to 400k.

[rb]

Oops, I was too late to the draw. thepupil said it much better than me. Props.

[Palantir]

Cost of living is a sunk cost that needs to be paid in either situation. Same goes for networking events and trips, something he should be doing anyways, probably more so in your alternative where he networks without the MBA. Plus that 100k figure is pretax. Plus living expenses are not really that high anywhere outside of NY, even in cities where "top schools" exist. The area around Booth is pretty affordable, same goes for Kellogg and Wharton just off the top of my head.