If you were to design an education system

[Jurgis]

And there goes another thread.

 

Sorry.  I sometimes forget that the government can solve all problems.  Please continue.

 

Nobody said that. But apparently some people believe that any government involvement is evil.

[rkbabang]

And there goes another thread.

 

Sorry.  I sometimes forget that the government can solve all problems.  Please continue.

 

Nobody said that. But apparently some people believe that any government involvement is evil.

 

Yes.  It is like a cancer.  "Just a little" involvement grows year by year until it overwhelms everything else.  People like to say, we should reduce the cancer over here and have a little more cancer over there, or we need a different type of cancer, and proclaim that they are for small-cancer.  I like to just come out and call it what it is and advocate cutting it out completely, saturating it with chemo or radiation, then watching closely to make sure it never comes back.

 

 

[DTEJD1997]

Hey all:

 

In addition to getting rid of compulsory education and shutting down a LOT of schools.  I would do the following:

 

A). Schools would open up maybe an hour before classes begin.  Breakfast would be served for a vastly discounted price.  Something like $.25. 

B). Students would get pens, paper, pencils, books, book bag.  Everything basic that they would need.

C). Lunches would be served at vastly discounted prices...again, something like $.25

D). The library & cafeteria would be open AFTER classes end, maybe till like 7-8 pm.  Snacks or light dinners would be offered at discounted prices.

E). Students could do their homework in the library.

F). The gym might also be open so that students could exercise.

 

Food would actually be tasty, hearty, and somewhat nutritious.

 

With this accomplished, students would have almost everything needed & provided to get a basic education.

 

While nobody would have attend school, it would be encouraged.

 

While in school, discipline would be brutal & strict.  Students are going to know who is in charge.  School is primarily a place for LEARNING, not warehousing criminals till the graduate to the prison system.

 

If a student is kicked out, they have to wait 1 year to get back in.  Students that were outside the system and now decide that they want back in should also be encouraged. 

 

An education should hopefully be for everyone...but only if they actually want it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Gardener]

As a kid I always loved to learn, read through encyclopedia's, read ahead if there was anything interesting in the textbooks. Yet I loathed school. I thought then and still think it was a waste of my time. It was the slow pace dictated by the poorest performers coupled with the fact that forcing a 6-12 year old to sit still for most of 7 hours straight is pretty dumb. I certainly learned a lot, but I could of learned a lot more, or learned just as much in a third the time. It would have been tough back then in the 80's to tailor things to my needs and abilities. They did the best they could with what they had.

 

Fast forward a few decades and not much has changed, like most government institutions there is no incentive to adapt new technology at anywhere near the pace of private enterprise.

 

I would privatize schools with a voucher system. Competition is a good thing and I trust parents to know best how to measure performance and choose the right schools. There are of course parents who could care less, and sadly it is difficult to help those kids, but I believe best practices would flow to even the worst schools.

 

I believe the technology is available to teach each kid at their own pace, in their own learning style, with stories and examples that resonate with them. We need to move past the one sized fits all education system. It should be highly individualized much of the learning would be khan academy style or via recorded lectures. A recorded lecture from an outstanding teacher beats a live lecture from a poor one, and the youngest generation learns all sorts of stuff from instructional videos on youtube as it is.

 

Lastly we should put a little more focus on our best and brightest. We will get much further by helping the top quartile reach their potential then by helping the bottom quartile reach theirs. I think if you broke it down you would discover that more money and teaching resources are poured into the lowest quartile.

 

I like the idea of making education voluntary. I'd hate to see any kid drop out, but also realize a kid who doesn't want to be there and whose family doesn't value education can truly slow down the learning of a whole class.

 

Agreed. I think a voucher system would be very effective in putting a reward on innovation in school. Today a school doesn't have enough incentive to challenge the status quo.

[Gardener]

Hey all:

 

In addition to getting rid of compulsory education and shutting down a LOT of schools.  I would do the following:

 

A). Schools would open up maybe an hour before classes begin.  Breakfast would be served for a vastly discounted price.  Something like $.25. 

B). Students would get pens, paper, pencils, books, book bag.  Everything basic that they would need.

C). Lunches would be served at vastly discounted prices...again, something like $.25

D). The library & cafeteria would be open AFTER classes end, maybe till like 7-8 pm.  Snacks or light dinners would be offered at discounted prices.

E). Students could do their homework in the library.

F). The gym might also be open so that students could exercise.

 

Food would actually be tasty, hearty, and somewhat nutritious.

 

With this accomplished, students would have almost everything needed & provided to get a basic education.

 

While nobody would have attend school, it would be encouraged.

 

While in school, discipline would be brutal & strict.  Students are going to know who is in charge.  School is primarily a place for LEARNING, not warehousing criminals till the graduate to the prison system.

 

If a student is kicked out, they have to wait 1 year to get back in.  Students that were outside the system and now decide that they want back in should also be encouraged. 

 

An education should hopefully be for everyone...but only if they actually want it.

 

Another good idea. The difference in terms of academic achievement between students born in a family that acknowledges the benefits of education vs. a family that doesn't already begins very early. For example, you see children/students getting a room that is quiet and comfortable for learning, vs. children/students that are not getting this luxury. Already at this stage a difference in academic performance could begin to appear. That's why I would always oppose the idea of homework at a very young age, unless the children/students have a common place where they would all stay and learn together (talking about a young age here).

[DTEJD1997]

Hey all:

 

Another point I would like to bring up is that a lot of members on this site are probably disconnected and unaware of what is actually going on in the schools of inner city America.

 

I was born & raised in the city of Detroit.  I moved back to the Detroit area just over a year ago.  While I currently do not live within city limits, I live less than 1 mile away.

 

I have/had family members who were employees of the City of Detroit and know several people who work/worked in the school system.

 

What is going on is absolutely shocking on so many different levels.  American society has got a real problem when hundreds of thousands or millions of students don't manage to graduate from High School.  The problem is further compounded by "social advancement".  Many graduates can barely read or do basic math. 

 

The quality of all high school educations has gone down tremendously in the past 50 years.  This is especially the case in inner city schools.

 

It has now come to the point where there are lost generations because of this.

 

For those that think I am hysterical or exaggerating please see this tremendous video produced by Dan Rather a few years ago.  It really only scratches the surface, but it is a quality production.  It is almost two hours in length.  Please point your browser to:

 

 

 

[SharperDingaan]

Kids are not china plates. Get out of their way, & let the discipline of the school yard work.

 

Bullying is part of life; school yards are where kids learn how to deal with it. Be the bully, duck bullies, form your own gang, fight dirty, fight smart, use fear; all are essential business skills not taught in text books. The natural leaders separate out pretty quickly – legal & illegal.

 

Grow up, & learn how to deliver under pressure. If you cannot handle exam pressure, learn; be a hero – but better be sure you are as good as you think, or feel the loving embrace of a truly evil sergeant major. If you pass the acid test – welcome to higher education!

 

3 square meals a day, & the structured life. Feed a ghetto kid, & give them structure - & they will thrive; Jesse will heartedly agree! Turn those horrific life experiences into an asset, & give the kids a place to use it. Let each experience the warm touch of basic training, mature at his/her own pace, & give them access to a GI bill to go on to do whatever they wish; it may be school, or opening their own business. Nobody gets to flunk out; it is repeat until you pass, or literally die trying – whichever comes first.  You can do extreme weightwatchers, or study hard – your choice.

 

Everybody gets better. The sociopaths & leaders learn their crafts and how to deliver under stress, the obese or the slow become thin or feral, teachers and instructors get students who want to learn. Fear is a wonderful motivator; it saves lives as well as health care costs.

 

A healthy dollop of rough and tumble is not a bad thing.

 

SD

 

 

[rmitz]

And there goes another thread.

 

Sorry.  I sometimes forget that the government can solve all problems.  Please continue.

 

Nobody said that. But apparently some people believe that any government involvement is evil.

 

Yes.  It is like a cancer.  "Just a little" involvement grows year by year until it overwhelms everything else.  People like to say, we should reduce the cancer over here and have a little more cancer over there, or we need a different type of cancer, and proclaim that they are for small-cancer.  I like to just come out and call it what it is and advocate cutting it out completely, saturating it with chemo or radiation, then watching closely to make sure it never comes back.

 

No.

[adesigar]

And there goes another thread.

 

Sorry.  I sometimes forget that the government can solve all problems.  Please continue.

 

Nobody said that. But apparently some people believe that any government involvement is evil.

 

Ignore him. Thankfully he has a nice bright icon that makes it easy to do so.

The moment I see that icon I know the libertarian "evil thieving taxing incompetent government" crap will be in the post so I don't bother to read it.

It would also be nice if people didn't quote him since that makes it more difficult to ignore.

[Pelagic]

A). Schools would open up maybe an hour before classes begin.  Breakfast would be served for a vastly discounted price.  Something like $.25. 

B). Students would get pens, paper, pencils, books, book bag.  Everything basic that they would need.

C). Lunches would be served at vastly discounted prices...again, something like $.25

D). The library & cafeteria would be open AFTER classes end, maybe till like 7-8 pm.  Snacks or light dinners would be offered at discounted prices.

E). Students could do their homework in the library.

F). The gym might also be open so that students could exercise.

 

Most of these already exist in a lot of public school districts. The issue, as others have pointed out, is involvement at the student and parent level. If kids don't want to be involved they're not going to take advantage of any perks the school system is providing no matter how great you make it.

 

I tend to lean toward libertarian solutions in most things but I also realize that government's involvement in education runs so deep and at so many levels it will probably never be cut out. Even if the federal government was to leave education alone, we'd still have city, county, school district and state level bureaucracies involved. As I said in my previous post, I think there are effective solutions out there and part of the challenge is just allowing them to rise to the top in areas where the public education system has a de facto monopoly on the process. If private, subsidized-private and public schools are all  affordable choices for most parents, I think we would see some innovative solutions to local education issues, solutions not constrained by multiple layers of bureaucracy.

[DTEJD1997]

A). Schools would open up maybe an hour before classes begin.  Breakfast would be served for a vastly discounted price.  Something like $.25. 

B). Students would get pens, paper, pencils, books, book bag.  Everything basic that they would need.

C). Lunches would be served at vastly discounted prices...again, something like $.25

D). The library & cafeteria would be open AFTER classes end, maybe till like 7-8 pm.  Snacks or light dinners would be offered at discounted prices.

E). Students could do their homework in the library.

F). The gym might also be open so that students could exercise.

 

Most of these already exist in a lot of public school districts. The issue, as others have pointed out, is involvement at the student and parent level. If kids don't want to be involved they're not going to take advantage of any perks the school system is providing no matter how great you make it.

 

I tend to lean toward libertarian solutions in most things but I also realize that government's involvement in education runs so deep and at so many levels it will probably never be cut out. Even if the federal government was to leave education alone, we'd still have city, county, school district and state level bureaucracies involved. As I said in my previous post, I think there are effective solutions out there and part of the challenge is just allowing them to rise to the top in areas where the public education system has a de facto monopoly on the process. If private, subsidized-private and public schools are all  affordable choices for most parents, I think we would see some innovative solutions to local education issues, solutions not constrained by multiple layers of bureaucracy.

 

Pelagic:

 

You are right.  A lot of districts have SOME of these things going, but not all of them.  A lot of them are also shoddily and haphazardly provided.  It is critical to have ALL OF THEM.  The school should be a place where a student can study comfortably and get some shelter from the outside world.

 

The OTHER critical factor is to get rid of compulsory education.  If a significant percentage (as it stands currently) of the student population is disruptive/hostile, the whole thing falls apart.

 

Those that don't want education don't have to get it.  They can do ANYTHING they want as long as they don't break the law or hassle anybody else...

[Jurgis]

Possibly OT:

 

One area where I disagree with a lot of posters on this thread and with Wizard Schools link I posted is the benefit of the great schools. It seems that people believe that if we had great schools, everyone would be Elon Musk and we'd be living in paradise. IMHO the benefit of great schools is much lower than what people expect. In fact if we discard poor and broken schools (like Detroit examples in US) and discard the economics and mentality of parents and kids, IMO the results of best schools would not be that much different from results of average/OK/not-that-great schools. The best schools might make children happier and more excited to attend them, but the results are not necessarily gonna be much better.

 

To give some evidence to my viewpoint, take Soviet and Chinese school systems. Both of them are definitely not that good. I'd guess most here would say they are bad. And yet by a number of metrics kids who graduated from them did comparably well to US/European kids who went to good/better/private/etc schools.

 

Of course, I am hand waving a bit here. And I'm all for improving the schools as much as possible. I just don't think this would change things as much as people expect.

[adesigar]

I don't know what a new system would look like but in my opinion we need a system that will let the kids discover their passion and aptitude. Something that will let them figure out what they love doing and are good at by exposing them to as many things as possible at an early age. Once figured out they need a kind of apprenticeship from an early age to excel at what they love doing.  What is the point of cramming a bunch of Math/Science into the mind of someone who would rather be a painter/musician/composer/dancer etc?

 

Here is an personal anecdote.

My bachelors degree class of around 70 students studying Computer Science. The 3 individuals that were most successful.

1. Politics

2. Music

3. Management

[rukawa]

I would end compulsory schooling and privatize public education. My view is that basic schooling should take about 2 years and just focus on reading, writing, and arithmetic. After that you start on a real world project and get a job. Further education should be highly specific, extremely individualized and targeted lasting no more than 1 year (2 years perhaps for doctors or engineers).

 

My model would be coding bootcamps and University of Waterloo. Bootcamps because they are short. Waterloo because of the Co-op.

 

My view is that most education is useless and complete garbage. Probably 90% of what a person in school they never use.

[rukawa]

It is critical to have ALL OF THEM.  The school should be a place where a student can study comfortably and get some shelter from the outside world.

 

I always thought this was the problem with education...the sheltering from the outside world. Why do you think that is a good thing?

[DTEJD1997]

It is critical to have ALL OF THEM.  The school should be a place where a student can study comfortably and get some shelter from the outside world.

 

I always thought this was the problem with education...the sheltering from the outside world. Why do you think that is a good thing?

I guess I should have prefaced that statement with that it should apply primarily to inner city schools (but not exclusively).

 

That is a good thing because what some of the students face is absolutely heartbreaking & a detriment to their education & development.  For example, I've heard stories of children not being fed breakfast, kindergartners not knowing their name, children coming in wet as their clothes were not dried after being washed...and on and on.  Lots of children are coming from broken homes.

 

The environment in most Detroit neighborhoods can best be described as post apocalyptic.

 

So there are challenges beyond pure academics....

 

Conversely, it would quell excuses & discontent for one reason or another.  All reasonable keys to an education are being provided, the parents & children are free to take advantage of it, or not.

[rukawa]

I guess I should have prefaced that statement with that it should apply primarily to inner city schools (but not exclusively).

...

The environment in most Detroit neighborhoods can best be described as post apocalyptic.

 

I suspected that was the reason. But I think your solution won't be very effective. There is no good substitute for strong families and a good environment.

 

I read a lot of Thomas Sowell. One thing he talks about repeatedly is the vast and incredible difference between black-dominated neighbours during the 1950's and today. There is enormous interest and incentive on the part of liberals to deny that black families were ever ok but its just an enormous lie. There was a time when a black kid could receive education on par with white kids and he could grow up in a relatively safe neighbourhood.

[rkbabang]

And there goes another thread.

 

Sorry.  I sometimes forget that the government can solve all problems.  Please continue.

 

Nobody said that. But apparently some people believe that any government involvement is evil.

 

Ignore him. Thankfully he has a nice bright icon that makes it easy to do so.

The moment I see that icon I know the libertarian "evil thieving taxing incompetent government" crap will be in the post so I don't bother to read it.

It would also be nice if people didn't quote him since that makes it more difficult to ignore.

 

Good to know I can talk about you and you will never see it.  It is always a good idea in general to never read anything that might challenge your delusions.  I will let you all continue your plans to design a top down education system that will be such a perfect fit for every individual child on earth that it should be forced upon them by law and their parents should be forced to pay for it.  The  hubris of statists is delightfully amusing.

 

[DTEJD1997]

I guess I should have prefaced that statement with that it should apply primarily to inner city schools (but not exclusively).

...

The environment in most Detroit neighborhoods can best be described as post apocalyptic.

 

I suspected that was the reason. But I think your solution won't be very effective. There is no good substitute for strong families and a good environment.

 

I read a lot of Thomas Sowell. One thing he talks about repeatedly is the vast and incredible difference between black-dominated neighbours during the 1950's and today. There is enormous interest and incentive on the part of liberals to deny that black families were ever ok but its just an enormous lie. There was a time when a black kid could receive education on par with white kids and he could grow up in a relatively safe neighbourhood.

 

Well yes, you are absolutely correct.  Unfortunately, I think it is easier to change the skool system than to change culture and families.  In an ideal world, both would be changed.

 

What is interesting is that the white culture is catching up with black culture.  The number of white children being born to single parent households is rapidly rising...

 

Most liberals actually like/encourage this.

[LC]

I will let you all continue your plans to design a top down education system that will be such a perfect fit for every individual child on earth that it should be forced upon them by law and their parents should be forced to pay for it.  The  hubris of statists is delightfully amusing.

Too much regulation or absolutely zero regulation both cause problems. As with just about everything, moderation is best.

 

Standards exist to ensure safety. Snake-oil salesmen exist in all forms, education is no different. What makes you think removing all regulation will have a positive effect?

[rkbabang]

I will let you all continue your plans to design a top down education system that will be such a perfect fit for every individual child on earth that it should be forced upon them by law and their parents should be forced to pay for it.  The  hubris of statists is delightfully amusing.

Too much regulation or absolutely zero regulation both cause problems. As with just about everything, moderation is best.

 

Standards exist to ensure safety. Snake-oil salesmen exist in all forms, education is no different. What makes you think removing all regulation will have a positive effect?

 

Because education is a very individual and life long process.  It can't be designed or forced from the outside.  No two people need or want the same thing.  No two people have the same abilities and interests, and those even change for each individual throughout life, and even from day to day.  There is a massive demand for education.  The number of parents who do not want their children to be educated is tiny indeed.  And the number of children who are not naturally inquisitive and want to learn is tiny as well (at least until the state gets a hold of them, segregates them by age, bores them to death, and sucks the motivation to learn right out of them). You may say "but what about those few irresponsible parents or uninterested children?"  But lets face it, the children of those parents are the ones who are not only not getting a good education under the state system today, but are impeding the other children in their school who are forced to be in the same classroom from getting an education as well.  We live in a world where most of the information on earth is at your fingertips instantly, a 19th century Prussian education model is more than a little outdated.

 

[LC]

You haven't made clear how removing public education is an improvement. Your suggestions, which boil down to "get rid of everything", imply that the existence of public education prevents education. But I would disagree:

 

I attended public schools for the majority of my life. I've learned many things in public schools. Including how to deal with those "impeding education". I've also learned many things outside of school as well as a result of my own initiative. The two are not mutually exclusive.

 

Additionally, other options do exist: Home-schooling exists. You can pay for private schools which ascribe to any number of teaching methodologies (montessori, harkness, etc.).

 

I would also disagree that you can't "design" or "force" education. I was "forced" to do my "designed" homework on a daily basis by my parents. Their rule was, do your homework then you can go play with your friends. Well, it worked.