What's your current portfolio?

[rb]

Buffett is a great example of frugal living, as are many brk executives.

 

He knows how he wants to live and what makes him happy and does exactly that, doesn't spend more just because he has more, doesn't clutter his life with the superficial trappings of success that he doesn't particularly care for.

 

Would he be happier with 10 houses and yatchs and planes, drinking $5000 bottles of wine and eating caviar?

Liberty, I don't think there's much point arguing about thins, not that I don't enjoy the discussion. I think that this is a world view that if you don't get it in 5 minutes you'll just never get it. People are just wired differently.

 

You brought in Buffett. For comparison purposes I'll take a polar opposite: Trump. Both are very rich and can afford to get anything that they want. One lives in Omaha in a larger but otherwise quite average house, works 9-5 and then goes home and watches Breaking Bad or whatever, and gets a good night sleep. The other lives in a gold plated penthouse in NYC, works insane hours, barely sleeps, and engages in twitter wars in the middle of the night. Both seem really happy with their lives. If you forced them to trade places that will probably both be so unhappy that suicide would not be out of the question.

 

It's really as simple as that. Different strokes for different folks. I see people everyday, working ever longer hours. But they want bigger and bigger houses that they don't need. They can't afford them, so they decide to work even longer hours and buy then further away (where they're cheaper) and then they spend extra hours in traffic jams to commute back and forth every day. Then they have to spend more money to get extra crap to fill the bigger house, and more money on repairs and more time on cleaning. To me and maybe you just seems totally idiotic. But to them it makes perfect sense and I'm the idiot. Who knows? maybe I'm lazier than them. I just know that i really like my time :).

[Guest cherzeca]

so, to get back on thread, what's in your portfolio?

[rb]

BRK, WFC, TD, NESN, RR, MSFT,  CSCO, KO, PM and a bunch of smaller positions

[CorpRaider]

Liberty, congrats.  Thanks for sharing your story.  RB, Trump seems really happy to you?

[Liberty]

Buffett is a great example of frugal living, as are many brk executives.

 

He knows how he wants to live and what makes him happy and does exactly that, doesn't spend more just because he has more, doesn't clutter his life with the superficial trappings of success that he doesn't particularly care for.

 

Would he be happier with 10 houses and yatchs and planes, drinking $5000 bottles of wine and eating caviar?

Liberty, I don't think there's much point arguing about thins, not that I don't enjoy the discussion. I think that this is a world view that if you don't get it in 5 minutes you'll just never get it. People are just wired differently.

 

You brought in Buffett. For comparison purposes I'll take a polar opposite: Trump. Both are very rich and can afford to get anything that they want. One lives in Omaha in a larger but otherwise quite average house, works 9-5 and then goes home and watches Breaking Bad or whatever, and gets a good night sleep. The other lives in a gold plated penthouse in NYC, works insane hours, barely sleeps, and engages in twitter wars in the middle of the night. Both seem really happy with their lives. If you forced them to trade places that will probably both be so unhappy that suicide would not be out of the question.

 

It's really as simple as that. Different strokes for different folks. I see people everyday, working ever longer hours. But they want bigger and bigger houses that they don't need. They can't afford them, so they decide to work even longer hours and buy then further away (where they're cheaper) and then they spend extra hours in traffic jams to commute back and forth every day. Then they have to spend more money to get extra crap to fill the bigger house, and more money on repairs and more time on cleaning. To me and maybe you just seems totally idiotic. But to them it makes perfect sense and I'm the idiot. Who knows? maybe I'm lazier than them. I just know that i really like my time :).

 

Of course. The whole point is know thyself and do what truly makes you happy and fulfilled. If you thrive in a high-pressure environment and truly love luxury, that's fine. Nobody's pressuring anyone to go a certain route. The main problem is that most people just go with the flow and aren't even exposed to the alternatives that might actually work better for them. There's a huge machine that studies human psychology and has been iterating for decades on the best way to sell people stuff, and most of that comes from associating happiness and the good life with certain products and lifestyles that they want us to buy. They're very good at it, but it doesn't mean it's the way to go for everyone.

 

People also don't understand the tradeoffs. Unless you are born wealthy, you usually have to make pretty big sacrifices to acquire all the stuff you think you need. You might sacrifice your time, your health, you might sacrifice your peace of mind or your family relations. The cliché can be true and the things you own can end up owning you because you can't get off the treadmill of bills coming in, so you become a slave to some job that you might not like all that much. And so you exchange quality time with your spouse and kids, or with a good book or friends, with time dealing with commuting and office politics and that power-hungry middle manager, etc.

 

Trump might project that he's "tremendously" happy, but I'm not sure. He's a salesman first, pretty much playing a character every time he's in public. Trump seems both insecure and never satisfied (always needs more power, more money, more glory and fame).

[gary17]

Buffett is a great example of frugal living, as are many brk executives.

 

He knows how he wants to live and what makes him happy and does exactly that, doesn't spend more just because he has more, doesn't clutter his life with the superficial trappings of success that he doesn't particularly care for.

 

Would he be happier with 10 houses and yatchs and planes, drinking $5000 bottles of wine and eating caviar?

Liberty, I don't think there's much point arguing about thins, not that I don't enjoy the discussion. I think that this is a world view that if you don't get it in 5 minutes you'll just never get it. People are just wired differently.

 

You brought in Buffett. For comparison purposes I'll take a polar opposite: Trump. Both are very rich and can afford to get anything that they want. One lives in Omaha in a larger but otherwise quite average house, works 9-5 and then goes home and watches Breaking Bad or whatever, and gets a good night sleep. The other lives in a gold plated penthouse in NYC, works insane hours, barely sleeps, and engages in twitter wars in the middle of the night. Both seem really happy with their lives. If you forced them to trade places that will probably both be so unhappy that suicide would not be out of the question.

 

It's really as simple as that. Different strokes for different folks. I see people everyday, working ever longer hours. But they want bigger and bigger houses that they don't need. They can't afford them, so they decide to work even longer hours and buy then further away (where they're cheaper) and then they spend extra hours in traffic jams to commute back and forth every day. Then they have to spend more money to get extra crap to fill the bigger house, and more money on repairs and more time on cleaning. To me and maybe you just seems totally idiotic. But to them it makes perfect sense and I'm the idiot. Who knows? maybe I'm lazier than them. I just know that i really like my time :).

 

Of course. The whole point is know thyself and do what truly makes you happy and fulfilled. If you thrive in a high-pressure environment and truly love luxury, that's fine. Nobody's pressuring anyone to go a certain route. The main problem is that most people just go with the flow and aren't even exposed to the alternatives that might actually work better for them. There's a huge machine that studies human psychology and has been iterating for decades on the best way to sell people stuff, and most of that comes from associating happiness and the good life with certain products and lifestyles that they want us to buy. They're very good at it, but it doesn't mean it's the way to go for everyone.

 

People also don't understand the tradeoffs. Unless you are born wealthy, you usually have to make pretty big sacrifices to acquire all the stuff you think you need. You might sacrifice your time, your health, you might sacrifice your peace of mind or your family relations. The cliché can be true and the things you own can end up owning you because you can't get off the treadmill of bills coming in, so you become a slave to some job that you might not like all that much. And so you exchange quality time with your spouse and kids, or with a good book or friends, with time dealing with commuting and office politics and that power-hungry middle manager, etc.

 

Trump might project that he's "tremendously" happy, but I'm not sure. He's a salesman first, pretty much playing a character every time he's in public. Trump seems both insecure and never satisfied (always needs more power, more money, more glory and fame).

 

OK - I am going to scale back my kitchen reno now !!

[valcont]

Buffett is a great example of frugal living, as are many brk executives.

 

He knows how he wants to live and what makes him happy and does exactly that, doesn't spend more just because he has more, doesn't clutter his life with the superficial trappings of success that he doesn't particularly care for.

 

Would he be happier with 10 houses and yatchs and planes, drinking $5000 bottles of wine and eating caviar?

 

You missed my point. What I am saying is that a risk averse approach yields suboptimal results in life. Yes you can cut your spending down to an art, my point is it still wouldn't make much difference in your life. And if all you want is a simple living free of any modern conveniences, you might turn Amish. I think they beat MMM hands down and they've been doing it for ages.

 

Buffet has become a poster boy for everything these days.Yes he lives simply but he is a capitalist and has billions of dollars. You and I don't and wouldn't get it just by living like him. And he risked a lot in his life.

 

Anecdotal evidence and why this MMM riles me so much. An old friend of ours visited us last month. A 35 year old and a slave of  PwC for 10 years. He told me how he just found out about MMM and would cut his spending by 50% and should be "retired" in 10 years. I asked him why don't he just quit now and open his own practice since he already has enough connections to gin up work. He said it is very risky and he doesn't know anything about opening a business He might consider doing it after he retires. A complete wuss who has an opportunity to retire in 2-3 years but instead chose the "safe" approach to slave himself away for 10 years by cutting things. I told him he should consider selling his kidney. Why keep an extra organ?

 

And that is why MMM is so popular because it is a weak approach to wiggle out of your current situation in a "safe" way. The whole thing is a farce. If you are able to cut 50-70% of your spending, what does it say about you to start with? That you were a fool that was wasting away all that money and a blog figured it out for you. What about the job? If you hate it so much that you want to quit in 5-10 years. Aren't you wasting prime decades of your life working on the same job.People don't want to answer these questions because they are very inconvenient to your psyche. Instead "saving" for 10 years and  dreaming about the life afterwards is "safe" so everyone follows that. No one wants to risk anything.

 

And that is why these people would make terrible investors and entrepreneurs. These endeavors requires a lot of risk taking and comfort in an uncertain outcomes , a quality that just doesn't develop overnight. And no ,investing in 10 blue chip companies wouldn't make me an investor or an entrepreneur because it wouldn't move the needle for me. Its more akin to investing all your net worth in a nano cap.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[wachtwoord]

What about the job? If you hate it so much that you want to quit in 5-10 years. Aren't you wasting prime decades of your life working on the same job.People don't want to answer these questions because they are very inconvenient to your psyche. Instead "saving" for 10 years and  dreaming about the life afterwards is "safe" so everyone follows that. No one wants to risk anything.

 

Working for 10 years is a waste of a decade for me period (in any job, it's the absence of freedom). Still it's a relatively sure-shot way to financial independence if you control your spending. I'm perfectly fine with risk taking (and have done so and continue to) but only those which I think have positive risk adjusted benefits. You need to be paid for uncertainty or you nothing better than the guy at the slot machine.

[Liberty]

Buffett is a great example of frugal living, as are many brk executives.

 

He knows how he wants to live and what makes him happy and does exactly that, doesn't spend more just because he has more, doesn't clutter his life with the superficial trappings of success that he doesn't particularly care for.

 

Would he be happier with 10 houses and yatchs and planes, drinking $5000 bottles of wine and eating caviar?

 

You missed my point. What I am saying is that a risk averse approach yields suboptimal results in life. Yes you can cut your spending down to an art, my point is it still wouldn't make much difference in your life. And if all you want is a simple living free of any modern conveniences, you might turn Amish. I think they beat MMM hands down and they've been doing it for ages.

 

Buffet has become a poster boy for everything these days.Yes he lives simply but he is a capitalist and has billions of dollars. You and I don't and wouldn't get it just by living like him. And he risked a lot in his life.

 

Anecdotal evidence and why this MMM riles me so much. An old friend of ours visited us last month. A 35 year old and a slave of  PwC for 10 years. He told me how he just found out about MMM and would cut his spending by 50% and should be "retired" in 10 years. I asked him why don't he just quit now and open his own practice since he already has enough connections to gin up work. He said it is very risky and he doesn't know anything about opening a business He might consider doing it after he retires. A complete wuss who has an opportunity to retire in 2-3 years but instead chose the "safe" approach to slave himself away for 10 years by cutting things. I told him he should consider selling his kidney. Why keep an extra organ?

 

And that is why MMM is so popular because it is a weak approach to wiggle out of your current situation in a "safe" way. The whole thing is a farce. If you are able to cut 50-70% of your spending, what does it say about you to start with? That you were a fool that was wasting away all that money and a blog figured it out for you. What about the job? If you hate it so much that you want to quit in 5-10 years. Aren't you wasting prime decades of your life working on the same job.People don't want to answer these questions because they are very inconvenient to your psyche. Instead "saving" for 10 years and  dreaming about the life afterwards is "safe" so everyone follows that. No one wants to risk anything.

 

And that is why these people would make terrible investors and entrepreneurs. These endeavors requires a lot of risk taking and comfort in an uncertain outcomes , a quality that just doesn't develop overnight. And no ,investing in 10 blue chip companies wouldn't make me an investor or an entrepreneur because it wouldn't move the needle for me. Its more akin to investing all your net worth in a nano cap.

 

This is going in circles. I disagree with a lot of what you said. Taking a different path is risk taking, and MMM focuses a lot on increasing earnings, not just cutting expenses. MMM didn't hate his job, nor did I, we just wanted more freedom and variety. Anyway, let's stop here.

[Ballinvarosig Investors]

Can people debate this lifestyle stuff in a separate thread please?

[DooDiligence]

Master Po: [after easily defeating the boy in combat] Ha, ha, never assume because a man has no eyes he cannot see. Close your eyes. What do you hear?

Young Caine: I hear the water, I hear the birds.

Master Po: Do you hear your own heartbeat?

Young Caine: No.

Master Po: Do you hear the grasshopper that is at your feet?

Young Caine: [looking down and seeing the insect] Old man, how is it that you hear these things?

Master Po: Young man, how is it that you do not?

 

(What would happen if Michael Burry & Master Po opened up a shop?)

[DooDiligence]

Sorry Ballin - you're right...

[vinod1]

Sorry for the OT. But to support what Liberty is saying here is a short story. I read this a long while back but I keep thinking about this often.

 

Vinod

 

Mexican Fisherman Meets Harvard MBA

 

An American investment banker was at the pier of a small coastal Mexican village when a small boat with just one fisherman docked.  Inside the small boat were several large yellowfin tuna.  The American complimented the Mexican on the quality of his fish and asked how long it took to catch them.

 

The Mexican replied, “only a little while. The American then asked why didn’t he stay out longer and catch more fish? The Mexican said he had enough to support his family’s immediate needs. The American then asked, “but what do you do with the rest of your time?”

 

The Mexican fisherman said, “I sleep late, fish a little, play with my children, take siestas with my wife, Maria, stroll into the village each evening where I sip wine, and play guitar with my amigos.  I have a full and busy life.” The American scoffed, “I am a Harvard MBA and could help you. You should spend more time fishing and with the proceeds, buy a bigger boat. With the proceeds from the bigger boat, you could buy several boats, eventually you would have a fleet of fishing boats. Instead of selling your catch to a middleman you would sell directly to the processor, eventually opening your own cannery. You would control the product, processing, and distribution. You would need to leave this small coastal fishing village and move to Mexico City, then LA and eventually New York City, where you will run your expanding enterprise.”

 

The Mexican fisherman asked, “But, how long will this all take?”

 

To which the American replied, “15 – 20 years.”

 

“But what then?” Asked the Mexican.

 

The American laughed and said, “That’s the best part.  When the time is right you would announce an IPO and sell your company stock to the public and become very rich, you would make millions!”

 

“Millions – then what?”

 

The American said, “Then you would retire.  Move to a small coastal fishing village where you would sleep late, fish a little, play with your kids, take siestas with your wife, stroll to the village in the evenings where you could sip wine and play your guitar with your amigos.”

 

 

[fareastwarriors]

Can people debate this lifestyle stuff in a separate thread please?

 

+1

[kh812000]

 

My Portfolio

EXPE    15%

JD        15%

BH        15%

LVNTA  10%

NPSNY  10%

DVMT    10%

AAPL      5%

CHTR      5%

BRK.B    5% 

Misc      5%

Cash      5%

 

 

 

[LC]

because of a few psychological phenomenons (hedonistic treadmill, relative value, peer pressure, etc), most people inflate their lifestyles to the breaking point, are stressed about money, keep comparing themselves to others who seem to be doing better (or to fictional characters on TV and in advertisment), and have no control over most of their time/life.

 

 

Well, I mean these phenomenons have been common to humans since, like, ever, right? Maybe our societies evolved this way because these phenomenons drive us to improve our lives.

 

Like, if everyone was happy sending letters via post, would we ever have email?

[maybe4less]

because of a few psychological phenomenons (hedonistic treadmill, relative value, peer pressure, etc), most people inflate their lifestyles to the breaking point, are stressed about money, keep comparing themselves to others who seem to be doing better (or to fictional characters on TV and in advertisment), and have no control over most of their time/life.

 

 

Well, I mean these phenomenons have been common to humans since, like, ever, right? Maybe our societies evolved this way because these phenomenons drive us to improve our lives.

 

Like, if everyone was happy sending letters via post, would we ever have email?

 

Looks like you're making an evolutionary argument, but there is not necessarily any overlap between phenomena that improve evolutionary fitness and those that "improve our lives."

[LC]

because of a few psychological phenomenons (hedonistic treadmill, relative value, peer pressure, etc), most people inflate their lifestyles to the breaking point, are stressed about money, keep comparing themselves to others who seem to be doing better (or to fictional characters on TV and in advertisment), and have no control over most of their time/life.

 

 

Well, I mean these phenomenons have been common to humans since, like, ever, right? Maybe our societies evolved this way because these phenomenons drive us to improve our lives.

 

Like, if everyone was happy sending letters via post, would we ever have email?

 

Looks like you're making an evolutionary argument, but there is not necessarily any overlap between phenomena that improve evolutionary fitness and those that "improve our lives."

OK - whether its evolutionary or not, how about the argument that there are good sides to the general sense of "chasing materialism" or whatever you want to call it. It drives people to improve.

[alwaysinvert]

Sorry for continued OT, maybe someone can break up the thread.

 

I think we all know one or two of these massive tightwads. The extremely grating ones who need to split bills down to decimals or don't tip when appropriate. Of course, exactly where you draw the line for when this gets irritating is personal. I'm pretty frugal myself and maybe I would fall in the tightwad category to some... But at the end of the day, and I've closely known people of both ilks, the cheapskates are way more in control of their lives than their opposites.

 

The wreckage that some of the dumb spenders bring on themselves is akin to alcholism and drugs. Now, some people actually can support big spending and don't ruin their own lives, due to being successful in their careers or at least working long hours. But that comes at the expense at being shackled in the rat race. Personally, I would favor having a choice.

 

Also, think of how the career people you know actually are doing. Don't they drink multiple times a week? Aren't they eating badly? Sleeping too little? Not exercising enough? That's all fine and well for your 20s and 30s (well, most can cope at least) but then that starts building up. 

 

And yes, I get the part about needing a BMW to get laid and going out to dinner every weekend and trips 2 times a year. That's stuff you could easily afford and still save lots of money. I'm talking about spending beyond that and first and foremost spending which isn't reflected on.

 

That said, I'm not really fond of MMM and find most of valcont's criticism accurate. Much of it seems to be focusing on minutiae.

[LC]

MMM started in 2011 and was most popular I presume through 2014. This was the recovery period from the recession. And here we are at the end of 2016 with the market at such heights, and we're criticizing frugality versus richness of life :/

[DTEJD1997]

Hey all:

 

I know some extremely tight/miserly people.

 

They are NOT good investors.

 

They don't really seem to be in control of their lives, in so far as they don't do a whole lot...and they are very good at self deprivation.

 

Of course, it is good to pinch a dollar...but at some point, what is the point?  What is the point of going through your life and not spending much of your money?  Constantly depriving yourself of stuff & experiences. 

 

For example...I have an associate who has ALWAYS been frugal/nervous about money.  He was a cheapskate.  FINE...

 

now he has graduated to being a miser.  For example, he won't drink soda/beer/alcohol unless he can get it for free or from work.  Sometimes he buys some powder mix kool-aid from the dollar store.  He does a LOT of his grocery shopping from the dollar store.  He has never bought furniture.  He gets all of it for free (gifts/trash picking), now a lot of his stuff is literally falling apart.  He is in his early 30's and his apartment looks like a college student/beggar.  Women are extremely put off when they come to visit...

 

Now he has started inviting friends/family to go out to eat with him.  He will just sit there drinking water.  He won't order/pay for food at a restaurant.  Many people are off put by this behavior (myself included).  People don't like this anti-social behavior and are now avoiding him.

 

Most of his clothes are out of date, ill fitting and literally getting holes.

 

He makes decent money...He simply will not spend money on anything unless it is absolutely necessary.

 

I think that when people go from being frugal to being miserly, it is a mental defect and a form of mental illness.

[InspireByReason]

SB - Safe Bulkers Inc

CFL - Canadian Equipment Rentals Corp

[alwaysinvert]

I think that when people go from being frugal to being miserly, it is a mental defect and a form of mental illness.

 

I don't disagree but it's an eminently more solvable problem than spending problems. In that case you have the hole you've worked up to get yourself out of in addition to your mental problems. There are also social problems with stopping spending - i.e the house you live in, what your spouse - that you chose living your old lifestyle - expects from you, your peer group's habits and so on.

 

Not saying it's easy to change your personality whatever the circumstances, mind you.

[Uccmal]

I agree. My wife and I are both frugal and like the value of savings, living below our means and some spare liquidity, which helps make a harmonious relationship, but we' still take plenty of trips and vacations each year, eat out, go to shows and have plenty of fun, but we don't tend to overpay for things or buy much stuff that doesn't add much value to our lives, nor do we live in a place much larger than we need. We also try to be generous with friends, family and guests.

 

When we've lost a smartphone or had a bike stolen or suffered some damage to our car, we've been surprisingly blasé about it and didn't even let it ruin our day. (I was surprised how we weren't worried, and actually that was a really great day when we found we'd had the bike stolen overnight). We're now waiting for an opportunity to buy a replacement at a good discount.

 

I think there are cheapskates who take it too far, but frugal and seeking value can be very rewarding and remove stress.

 

This is it.  I/we take trips when we want.  Daily spending isn't monitored.  Some things drive me nuts like phone/inet/mobile data costs.  I made myself more accepting of this by buying enough BCE so the dividends pay the entire costs in this arena.  And I will get to keep the capital gains.  I always pick my entry points to add.  Also hold Enbridge - get much more in dividends than the bills will ever be. 

 

I/we are frugal but not cheap.  That said I have no need to spend on certain things such as expensive dinners out (> 100 per family for dinner).  I actually dont enjoy pretentious fancy dinners out.  With anything there is a law of diminishing returns.  The tripling of cost from a dinner at a roadhouse to a fancy French restaurant dimishes my enjoyment.  I dont really like being served hand and foot. 

 

We have a lady clean our house once every two weeks.  She has been with us for five years, and it prevents alot of household strife.  My daughter (7) recently left a bunch of garbage on the floor and wouldn't pick it up knowing our cleaner was coming.  Lets just say that we had a little chat on how to treat people with her.

 

Sometimes I get blind spots.  I have played guitar nearly 4 yrs., (1.5 hrs. per day) and was using a crappy practice amp.  Finally I made myself buy a high quality tube amp and boy did that ever make a difference. 

 

These days we buy only gently used vehicles - we are near the airport so there are alot of former rentals available that are one year old.  Being in Toronto these cars are gently used as opposed to getting an off rental in Arizona.  Both of us use credit cards but avoid carrying any balance over (if we do its accidental), so essentially we pay cash for everything. 

 

My portfolio is listed in my signature except I dont think I added Baytex, and Aimia prefs.  The position sizes are mostly similar and jockey back and forth for top spot.  Some are compounders and 5 are oil and gas related value bets.

 

 

[Uccmal]

If everybody did it it wouldn't work. Isn't that the argument against the US lifestyle to begin with?

 

You can also get the gist of Buffett's letters in an hour, but that's not the point, is it?

 

And the only person funding my retirement is myself. I deferred spending in the past and made sacrifices to earn more so that I'd have surplus resources in the future. I bought time. There's no such thing as a free lunch. And as you know if you've read Mr. Money Mustache, he's been earning more than enough to live in retirement even if you remove the blog income, just by working on hobbies and side projects. The point isn't that you go to a beach and do nothing, but that you are free to work on what you want to how long you want; spend as much time with your family as you want, etc; for the kind of people who are motivated and disciplined enough to get to the point of FIRE, a lot of those side-projects are going to be good earners. Personally my work now is being an investor, but if I stopped enjoying it, I could index or give my money to Turtle Creek or whatever and go do something else. That freedom to do what I please every day is worth more to me than earning 1 million a year working some downtown 9-5 job five days a week.

 

If you love your current work, that's great. Being in business for yourself probably is more freeing than what most people do all day. But don't try to minimize this great strategy as clipping coupons and mowing your lawn. It's an important mindset change that most people never even consider, because most people who are lucky enough to end up earning "3x more" than they used to just spend 3x more, with little effect on their long-term life satisfaction.

 

I do think you misunderstand my mindset. I don't have a scarcity mindset. I have way more money than I need, and I don't even know what else I'd buy if I had more. My wife and I have a hard time finding gifts to buy each other because we already have everything we want, or if there's something we really want we just buy it, so we usually have it by the time a birthday rolls around. My engineering side finds it elegant to save money and optimize my lifestyle. I get more pleasure out of cutting waste than out of buying expensive crap. Maybe it would be a hardship for you, but it isn't for me, and many others.

 

First off I didn't make any comments about you or your mindset. I know you only from your posts and you seem to be an intelligent person. So lets not

take it personally.

 

All I am saying is maybe this MMM guy works for a certain type of people and he may have helped them by showing a different path. But there is nothing revolutionary in the strategy and wouldn't benefit the society as a whole.I would much rather focus on the other side of equation i.e. earnings and growth with some risk involved.

 

A good analogy is going long or shorting a stock. You can only short up to zero but are unlimited on the other side. Then why focus on something with limited potential. That doesn't mean you don't monitor your stock for a potential downside.Its just that your energy is focussed on maximum growth and you are not looking for scams ,shady companies.For a novice both would work well but long only is a better approach.

 

The common lifestyle of most people is mind numbing and soul killing, as well as unhealthy in many ways. Cranking things up so they make more money isn't a solution. Rethinking the link between spending and happiness and between freedom and happiness is, imo, likely to have a much bigger effect on life satisfaction.

 

I was taking the mmm approach long before his blog ever existed. I just think he's one of the best teachers of this approach.

 

I think the main insight that he, and others, are trying to communicate is that we live in a world of incredible abundance and surplus. We're vastly richer than most people that ever lived, and than most people currently alive around the world. Even kings and queens of other eras had only few of the comforts that we take for granted today. Yet because of a few psychological phenomenons (hedonistic treadmill, relative value, peer pressure, etc), most people inflate their lifestyles to the breaking point, are stressed about money, keep comparing themselves to others who seem to be doing better (or to fictional characters on TV and in advertisment), and have no control over most of their time/life.

 

I see the opposite of your analogy with long/short. Working a typical job can only get you so far because most of your waking hours for all your prime decades are called for. Being independent has so many more ways to be fulfilling, even if you still work as much. Freedom means having a choice.

 

You seem to have found at least some independence through running a business. This is another common path. But I think the freedom probably matters more than the money.  Would you go back to being an employee for more  money?

 

The mmm path certainly isn't the only one. But entrepreneurship isn't for everyone either.

 

Liberty, were certainly on the same page.  MMM is a gem.  I have read 90% of his blog.  Much of the stuff I did already.  Some I wouldn't bother with.  MMM is also a few years younger than me, lives in a dry area, that is much more conducive to some of his activities.  I live in TO and value my life too much to commute on city streets on a bicycle.  MMM loves to hold TO up as a bad example, and he is right.  I am sure many other cities fit this mold but he is most familiar with TO, having grown up in the area, so it makes a convenient example.  As for the debate that if everyone lived this way, the economy would collapse - it wouldn't - it would simply readjust.  But its a moot point - Most people are caught in the loop of working more in order to afford more things they dont need and it wont change.