The 28 year old retiree

[rb]

I think writser nailed it.

[Ross812]

I think if you have a strongly negative reaction to him or his message, you should consider taking a moment to ask yourself why.

 

I have absolutely no problem with the message which is spending well within your means, optimize your spending, reduce your environmental footprint, don't get caught up on the consumer treadmill, and for all this there is a carrot at the end of the stick of being able to retire long before what is typical. The premise is pretty simple: track your expenses and aim to save 25x your annual expenses in order to hit a 4% withdrawal rate. 

 

I am sure this guy was able to keep his spending low in the early days as evidenced by the spending posts Liberty highlighted. I am just stating that beyond the pretty simple premise of his message, he has a ton of posts where he does some arithmetic gymnastics, and picks and chooses when he uses a your time is money argument, or uses some crazy hyperbole to prove a point. 

 

Killing you $1000 grocery bill - he breaks food staples down into the their cost per meal based on calorie content. He concludes you should be mixing low cost high calorie food in with more expensive food like meat to lower your grocery budget. Sounds like a cool idea except all the food staples he chose as example are carbs and oil. He also likes to ignore any food prep and clean up time in his calculations.

 

The true cost of commuting - He uses a rate of ~50c/mile and adds the time spent in the car at $25 per hour. He then states living 1 mile closer to work supports a ~16k difference in housing cost to justify buying a house closer to work and states rationally, you could could spend $460k more on a house 30 miles closer to work and break even. This is fine; however, why not include this $25/hour rate for prep and clean up time when killing you $1000 grocery bill? Why pick and choose for the commuting costs? I mean, if I ignore the $25 per hour calculation my cost of living 1 mile further away is $5200 in housing costs by his calculations and only justifies spending 150k more to buy a home 30 miles closer to my job. 

 

I can just as easily make counter arguments for his articles and write something like - Takeout, the key to saving on groceries! I spend an average of 40 mins preparing and cleaning up from dinner and another $8 in ingredients, I am spending $23 on a meal for two. Contrast this with most take out restaurants, where I can pick up two meals for $10 each on the way home from work. I save $3 a day. $3/day over 10 years compounded at 5% is $15K you are giving up by cooking!!!!   

 

Now I realize this is hyperbole. I just wish people would think critically when reading these early retirement blogs.

[Liberty]

So basically, you agree, you just like to nitpick. Gotcha.

 

Maybe I should nitpick your nitpicks (later posts have him discussing moving to a more paleo/low-carb diet, etc) and then you can nitpick my nitpicks and so on... That'll be really productive. Like people who say "Buffett says he's frugal and still lives in the same house and drive hail-damaged vehicles, but he flies on private jets! What a hyppocrite!"  ::)

 

Nobody can write advice and have flawless logic equally applicable to everybody, while staying entirely internally consistent from post to post over hundreds of posts and years of personal change and evolution. Welcome to the real world. What matters are the ideas and the principles and how you can be inspired to apply them to your life with whatever adjustments are necessary. It matters a lot more that the stuff works than the fact that he's teaching people to value how much time they waste commuting in a different manner than he values the time it takes to clean up home-cooked meals...

 

Most regular people are so bad at managing their finances that people like MMM are a glass of water in the desert to a lot of people, and he's providing all that advice for free. I realize people on this forum are very atypical, but let's not lose sight of what matters in the end.

[Gregmal]

The bottom line is these type of stories, almost always associated with a blog or newsletter, have been around forever. Everyone wants to retire comfortably as early as possible that's why "pitching the dream" is an easy sell.

 

Like the 28 year old Harvard grad pulling in 600k a year, everyone I know who did this has more or less the same story. Silver spoon fed, made lots of money early, then did some feel good job to justify their purpose.

 

I've said it before but since I've gotten into the financial world, I've been floored by how many  "hedge fund/portfolio managers" I've encountered who's story goes something like this. Parents gave them everything on a silver platter, paid for their 4 year school, family and friends chip in so Jr. can now keep busy playing hedge fund manager, even though Jr. is completely unqualified, never worked a real job in his life, and probably better off getting some real world experience. Jr. "makes" money charging fees to mom, dad and the cool uncle and considers himself a hot shot because he has a better lifestyle than most other people.

 

Just like how I'd never take Jr. seriously if I was seeking out advice on how to run an investment fund, I'd also never take seriously these paid per click bloggers who leave out the most important half of their story; that they came from situations not attainable to the average guy. Retiring early because you live sensibly and invest wisely isn't rocket science. It's actually pretty basic math and some common sense.

[Liberty]

The bottom line is these type of stories, almost always associated with a blog or newsletter, have been around forever. Everyone wants to retire comfortably as early as possible that's why "pitching the dream" is an easy sell.

 

Like the 28 year old Harvard grad pulling in 600k a year, everyone I know who did this has more or less the same story. Silver spoon fed, made lots of money early, then did some feel good job to justify their purpose.

 

I've said it before but since I've gotten into the financial world, I've been floored by how many  "hedge fund/portfolio managers" I've encountered who's story goes something like this. Parents gave them everything on a silver platter, paid for their 4 year school, family and friends chip in so Jr. can now keep busy playing hedge fund manager, even though Jr. is completely unqualified, never worked a real job in his life, and probably better off getting some real world experience. Jr. "makes" money charging fees to mom, dad and the cool uncle and considers himself a hot shot because he has a better lifestyle than most other people.

 

Just like how I'd never take Jr. seriously if I was seeking out advice on how to run an investment fund, I'd also never take seriously these paid per click bloggers who leave out the most important half of their story; that they came from situations not attainable to the average guy. Retiring early because you live sensibly and invest wisely isn't rocket science. It's actually pretty basic math and some common sense.

 

Wow.

 

Except that MMM and that woman both retired before creating their blog, and that MMM was a software engineer who came from a low-middle class Canadian family and didn't make anywhere close to wall street money. Neither did I, btw, and I don't have a blog, and I've met tons of people who did the same thing and most are pretty regular folks.

 

But anyway, keep inventing scenarios in your head if it makes you feel better.

[Ross812]

I think Gregmal was talking about the 28 year old retiree...

 

As for the nit picking, I was just giving an example. MMM seems to give pretty good advice: buy vanguard funds, buy used cars, ride a bike, use credit card points, DIY what you can etc. I was just pointing out how on reading through a half dozen of his posts, I was struck by the his ability to make the numbers talk his way. It kind of comes full circle to investing and questioning some interesting accounting and management slide decks. I have a mind that remembers numbers so after reading your first link to his '16 budget and off the cuff seeing 100k+ in spending then the claim to spend 30k, I kind of did a double take.  Apologies for calling it out and nitpicking.

[writser]

Liberty, why are you so defensive about these gurus? Is MMM your uncle? Do you have a similar blog yourself? You admittedly hardly took a look at this woman's blog yet you immediately step up to defend her personally. Everybody here agrees that living within your means is a great concept and most of us agree that early retirement is also a great concept. But whenever somebody points out that some of these gurus might be insincere or self-promotional you immediately chime in with a snarky reply: "well, you are wrong, MMM is for real and ERE is a great concept you shortsighted corporate slave!". That's not a counter-argument. Both can be true at the same time.

[Cigarbutt]

-FIRE blogs may have incentives to make money and the "story" may be inconsistent.

-To reach financial independence in an un-conventional way, including, among others to stay away from keeping up with the Joneses is OK.

 

The two statements above are independent and not mutually exclusive.

 

"Retiring early because you live sensibly and invest wisely isn't rocket science. It's actually pretty basic math and some common sense."

 

Even if the above is true and even if many wish that for themselves, very few people achieve this. Why?

 

Everybody wants to go to Heaven but nobody wants to die.

 

I submit that these FIRE blogs can help with the framework and tricks.

But, basically, it is a matter of choice.

[Gregmal]

The bottom line is these type of stories, almost always associated with a blog or newsletter, have been around forever. Everyone wants to retire comfortably as early as possible that's why "pitching the dream" is an easy sell.

 

Like the 28 year old Harvard grad pulling in 600k a year, everyone I know who did this has more or less the same story. Silver spoon fed, made lots of money early, then did some feel good job to justify their purpose.

 

I've said it before but since I've gotten into the financial world, I've been floored by how many  "hedge fund/portfolio managers" I've encountered who's story goes something like this. Parents gave them everything on a silver platter, paid for their 4 year school, family and friends chip in so Jr. can now keep busy playing hedge fund manager, even though Jr. is completely unqualified, never worked a real job in his life, and probably better off getting some real world experience. Jr. "makes" money charging fees to mom, dad and the cool uncle and considers himself a hot shot because he has a better lifestyle than most other people.

 

Just like how I'd never take Jr. seriously if I was seeking out advice on how to run an investment fund, I'd also never take seriously these paid per click bloggers who leave out the most important half of their story; that they came from situations not attainable to the average guy. Retiring early because you live sensibly and invest wisely isn't rocket science. It's actually pretty basic math and some common sense.

 

Wow.

 

Except that MMM and that woman both retired before creating their blog, and that MMM was a software engineer who came from a low-middle class Canadian family and didn't make anywhere close to wall street money. Neither did I, btw, and I don't have a blog, and I've met tons of people who did the same thing and most are pretty regular folks.

 

But anyway, keep inventing scenarios in your head if it makes you feel better.

 

I'd wasn't referring specifically to MMM. For every one of those, there are a billion others who leave out the part about 500k salaries, parents leaving an inheritance, stock options going bananas, etc; all things that arent attainable to the average Joe. The woman who retired and then started a blog at 28 has little business preaching about what the model is for retiring early unless she's speaking at Ivy Leagues. "Hey Joe the Plumber, when you graduate from Yale, get an IB job at DB, then leverage than into an analyst job at Pershing Square, and voila, you can retire by 30!"...

 

I also don't really understand the "inventing scenarios" part of your remark. What's being invented? Blogs about retiring early/getting rich quick are like the diet pills you see on TV. Everyone claims theirs works but the only consistent theme is the person is selling a product and needs YOU to get paid for it. I don't know why you are being so sensitive about this.

[writser]

I don't know why you are being so sensitive about this.

 

+1. We get the message, you are super into the early retirement lifestyle and it makes you happy. Critical notes about the messengers are not appreciated.

[Liberty]

Liberty, why are you so defensive about these gurus? Is MMM your uncle? Do you have a similar blog yourself? You admittedly hardly took a look at this woman's blog yet you immediately step up to defend her personally. Everybody here agrees that living within your means is a great concept and most of us agree that early retirement is also a great concept. But whenever somebody points out that some of these gurus might be insincere or self-promotional you immediately chime in with a snarky reply: "well, you are wrong, MMM is for real and ERE is a great concept you shortsighted corporate slave!". That's not a counter-argument. Both can be true at the same time.

 

Writser, why are you so negative about these gurus? Did MMM kick your dog?

 

My replies speak for themselves. If I see something that I think is wrong, or misses the point, or is unfair, I tend to point it out. When someone who became financially independent at a young age is called a welfare queen and a housewife, I think that's worth setting the record straight. When MMM is called a fraud and charlatan when he clearly isn't, to me that's worth setting the record straight. When people who clearly have no idea about these ideas try to misrepresent them totally, I say something because I know that when I was 20, maybe if I had read a forum where a bunch of people say it's all bullshit and nobody who actually knew what they were talking about piped up, maybe I would've shrugged and not looked deeper.

 

Is everything perfect? No. Are some of these blogs low quality and promotional? Sure. I'm not defending that.

 

But I certainly think some people love to focus on any negative thing they can find to try to dismiss the whole thing, and that's not a rational way to look at it.

[Gregmal]

I don't know why you are being so sensitive about this.

 

+1. We get the message, you are super into the early retirement lifestyle and it makes you happy.

 

LOL shit, so am I. But isn't also part of investing and part of the framework necessary to retire early being wise about your time and money? By nature being skeptical of frauds, scams, and schemes? So yea, I see some fantastic story about this chick who went to Harvard retiring at 28, or a couple who retired at 35 but after briefly glancing at the details see the numbers don't add up and that I'm encouraged to click to link to their blog, I decide my time is better spent doing other things.

[oddballstocks]

This stuff has been around forever.  I used to listen to Dave Ramsey back in 2005/2006.  I paid off debt, saved money, learned to live on less than we make etc.  It was all good, the foundation is sound.  The math works out, if you live on less than you make and save the difference you end up in a good position.  I'd be shocked to find someone on this board who disagrees.

 

I used to read The Simple Dollar, another MMM type blog before MMM existed.  Again, back in 2005 maybe?  Anyways this guy was hardcore frugal, I mean he'd make MMM look like a spendthrift.  The Simple Dollar guy made his own laundry detergent, made most from scratch, it was crazy and entertaining. 

 

His story was like most.  He did this blog, he attracted a loyal cult-esque following.  He was very public that he worked in IT making less than $50k a year, saving, living below his means etc.  Then suddenly he sold his blog for seven figures.  Now it's pumping insurance products and other crap.  He cashed out, who knows how he lives now.  I know he paid off his house from the sale, purchase some luxury items.  So the story isn't to live on less than you make and pay off debt, it's live on less than you make, blog, then sell and pay off debt.

 

That's the same with most of these blogs.  They are a platform for a while then suddenly they hit it big and the message changes.

 

I'm sure MMM is a cool guy.  If I lived in wherever he lives I'm sure it'd be fun to grab a beer with him. 

 

Someone asked why I'm against biking.  I'm not, I used to bike to work.  I bike fairly often currently.  I've even done bike tours, I love bikes.  But I'm not a bikes are religion person.  I know a lot of them, and they aren't frugal either.  It's as if bikes are their identity and you should bike everywhere.  To them the perfect world is bikes instead of cars.  I just never got into biking like this.  It's not practical for what I do where I live.  That's not to say there aren't car alternatives.  I've ran and walked to places instead of biked.  I used to take the bus and train.  But I'm not part of the bike religion, I feel like MMM is, and I get it.  If you're into bikes it's hard for it not to become a very serious hobby.

 

The net of all of this with these guys is that I hate the attitude of "My way or the highway (or bike lane)." that they all seem to have.  They've all found the TRUE RELIGION of frugality and if you believe exactly what they say then you'll retire early and have no worries. 

 

This true religion crap is everywhere.  And in general I find the followers worse than the leader.  Look at exercise or diet.  Usually the leader of something is reasonable, but the followers are do or die about following whatever it is to a T.

 

[writser]

Writser, why are you so negative about these gurus?

 

Skepticism is my default setting when people try to sell me things, because I am frugal. And given the affiliate links, books and seminars on most of the ERE blogs these gurus are definitely trying to sell me something.

[Cigarbutt]

I like the idea of selecting the best and relevant aspects of concepts. And focus on time well spent.

Maybe espousing a concept to the point where critical thinking becomes blurred is a step too far.

 

This reminds me of scuttlebutt or mosaic theory investing. Take bits and pieces and make the whole your own. That does not take anything away from others.

 

FIRE is not morally superior, but it can be fun.

 

 

[rb]

Most regular people are so bad at managing their finances that people like MMM are a glass of water in the desert to a lot of people, and he's providing all that advice for free. I realize people on this forum are very atypical, but let's not lose sight of what matters in the end.

Ok, let me take my turn to nitpick a bit.

 

Assuming that most people are horrible at managing finances is pretty arrogant. Yes some people are stupid. That is true in any context and of course it applies to financial matters as well. But most people aren't bad at managing finances. Most people make choices. Do you think people didn't know that kids cost money before someone like MMM talked about it? Do you think that people don't know that used cars are cheaper than new ones? Of course they do. But some choose to buy the used one and some choose to buy the new one because that's what they want. Some people want the nicer car or the nicer house and they're willing to work (i.e. trade in their labour for the item) to get it.

 

It sounds like you would not make different choices than other. Forgo the nicer house, nicer car, new car smell etc in order to save your labour. That's fine. That's the choice that you've made. But don't think that people don't know what they are doing just because they make different choices or because you don't agree with their choices. People know what they're doing.

[Cigarbutt]

This thread is deviating to financial literacy in general, a topic of interest.

 

Financial literacy is based on the ability to take basic financial decisions and to avoid excessive debt.

 

My opinion is that the majority of people, unfortunately, lack basic financial literacy and live from one paycheck to the other.

 

People, in the main, act on incentives (not all appropriate) and take bad decisions for key aspects of their financial situations: buying house, buying car, debt for education, living beyond their means and credit card (ab)use. What is also interesting is that all lot of people rely on government transfers, which are based on largely unfunded and unsustainable programs, to barely make ends meet.

 

There are many factors behind this situation but stepping on the hedonic treadmill clearly plays a role.

 

Whatever can help financial literacy is welcome.

 

Frugality is not "in" now but that may change. Potential investment implications.

 

 

[Liberty]

Writser, why are you so negative about these gurus?

 

Skepticism is my default setting when people try to sell me things, because I am frugal. And given the affiliate links, books and seminars on most of the ERE blogs these gurus are definitely trying to sell me something.

 

I'm all for skepticism. I'm not offering a blanket defense of anything, I'm focusing on specific points.

 

As for the general question of "why do you post so much about this stuff Liberty?"...

 

Well, "because I want to" is enough, but on top of that, because I care about this stuff.

 

My main passion currently is investing and I spend a lot of my time on it, and I don't really read about the other MMM stuff anymore. But if I had to pick between "frugality + basic financial literacy + financial independence + early retirement + the psychology of happiness stuff" or "value investing", I'd pick the former. It has had a bigger impact on my life and I think it can have a bigger impact on more people's lives than value investing.

 

I'd rather trade money for freedom than freedom for money. If I had to reboot my life and never hear about either thing, I'd rather not hear about value investing/Buffett/etc. if I didn't have investing I'd be in a similar spot - though poorer - but spending my days on stuff that interests me, with low stress and low annoyances. If I never heard about the FIRE stuff, I feel my life would be appreciably worse (and it's not even about having a bad job -- I had a great job with lots of freedom and good pay, I just wanted this other thing even more). It's not for everyone, but it's for more people than currently even know it's an option.

 

In the end, people try to personalize this stuff so much. I don't care about the gurus, though IMO MMM is the Buffett of the field (and Fisker or Early Retirement Extreme is probably the Ben Graham). I care about the big ideas, which include a lot of psychology and philosophy that people not too familiar with the field discount to focus on the tips and tricks (the same thing happens with value investing, btw).

[Liberty]

For those curious, I started thinking maybe this thing was a possibility around 15 years ago. First idea came from Your Money or Your Life*, then later I read Stumbling on Happiness** which helped crystallize some stuff about what my goals should be...

 

Then I read The Tightwad Gazette and The Simple Dollar and such in the 2000s, and they had some tricks and helped maintain the right mindset (kind of like how re-reading Buffett letters helps keep you focused on the right things even if you don't exactly learn something new)... But it's discovering MMM maybe 5-6 years ago that helped re-focus me and fully decide I had that goal and go for it. Like the Buffett letters, it's very motivational to read about someone doing it and explaining clearly the simple (but not easy) principles.

 

The problem with frugality without the rest (psych of happiness, early retirement or similarly big goal) is that if you still think that what will make you happy is buying a fancy car every 4 years and buying luxury goods and constantly eating out and such, then whenever you are being frugal it feels like a sacrifice, and the money you're piling on will only be later spent on consumer crap anyway, so there's little point.

 

But if you have a larger goal that you really want, like having "F Y money" to be less stressed, or the ability to start your own business, or to take a year off whenever you want, or work part time, or to not have a job at all and focus on your own projects and interests, then every dollar you save feels tremendously good and motivation is never a problem, it doesn't feel like a sacrifice. The whole thing is a flywheel that works a lot worse if you remove any part of it.

 

If you can't reduce your spending by a lot, you'll never save enough to be independent. The math is impossible to get around.

 

If you think spending money increases happiness (past a certain point - some things are worth it, a lot are not), then spending less feels terrible.

 

If you don't realize it's possible to do things differently than everybody else, then it feels like you're just saving to be rich for its own sake, and to later spend on SUVs and larger houses and luxury vacations, and that's not that motivating (at least not to me).

 

* https://www.amazon.ca/Your-Money-Life-Transforming-Relationship/dp/0143115766

 

** https://www.amazon.ca/Stumbling-Happiness-Daniel-Gilbert/dp/0676978584/

[Cigarbutt]

This topic is larger than investing per se.

But everything has a "price" and relative utility. Concepts intertwine.

 

Liberty, you seem to be happy with your choice(s) and that's good.

One cannot impose a view point but one can share useful information/references.

I don't agree with everything you say and the way you say it but have already benefitted from some of your references.

 

I also highly value independence and there are many noble ways to achieve this.

 

One can "buy" a lot of things, even a lifestyle but happiness is counter-intuitive.

 

From a certain Paul McCartney

...

Say you don't need no diamond ring and I'll be satisfied

Tell me that you want the kind of thing that money just can't buy

I don't care too much for money, money can't buy me love

...

 

Now back to investing.

 

[Jurgis]

Perhaps we should start a new "life and meaning of life" thread...  8)

 

Anyway, frugality/early-retirement/spending-money/meaning-of-life.

 

I mostly could retire if I wanted to. (The "mostly" part is US healthcare system and future implications of it.). I probably would not do it even if it was a sure thing and not "mostly".

 

I don't see what retirement would give me. I already can read/watch-TV/invest/play as much as I'd want. Yeah, sure I would have even more time for these things, but not sure it would change much in my life or make me happier.

 

In terms of contribution to society and this world, I'm probably making more contribution working where I am than striking out on my own and doing investing/whatever. I have very little interest in entrepreneurship. I have in the past done work for non-profits and I prefer arms-length involvement: I might be interested in their goals, but I am not interested in the day-to-day issues of running physical plant, doing fundraising, resolving internal issues, etc. I'd rather work at a company on things that I know how to do and are sometimes/mostly interesting. Yeah, sure there's stress sometimes, but it's like the guy who sold Buffett his company: 360 days a year it's OK and then 5 days a year I'd "sell my company and retire" (or "quit my job and retire"). So far I haven't met my Waterloo (to mix metaphors) and did not quit and retire.

 

I am not super-frugal and I am not super spendthrift. Cars are 14+ years and 5+ years old. House is too big, but nicely located and nice overall. We go out for food once in a week or so. We travel internationally probably once a year (parents are not in US + plus other vacation trips). I buy used books on Amazon if it's cheaper than Kindle. My TV is probably 7 years old by now, but it's 60" plasma... I buy clothes at TJ Maxx and wear them for ages. Anyway, there are things where I spend money and there are things where I don't.

 

I have very little interest in doing the manual work around the house. I fix some things, but I'm not interested in doing MMM type of repairs/etc. We have spent a bunch of money on house fixing/renovations, but possibly way less than some people who renovate constantly at 50K per room/whatever.

 

Overall, we are definitely not super frugal, likely middle of the road. Unlike some would claim, the fact that our salaries are high + investing has resulted in pretty nice "nest egg". And that's considering that we started from zero and started late in our lives. Yeah, $0 at age of 30. Not that this makes me a hero. Infotech salaries are rather obscene (though still quite lower than the WallStreet $2M in 5 years  ;) ).

 

Which reminds me. You guys know that saying "Nobody said on the death bed 'I wish I spent more time at the office'"? Well, I wish I spent more time at the office. Maybe I should start a blog about that and get cult following and ... profit!  8)

 

Peace.

[Parsad]

What are you guys bickering about anyways?  It's not like financial blogs are anything new, and personal finance books have been around since the dawn of capitalism.  Rather than being overly skeptical or overly enthusiastic, maybe people should pick and choose which pieces of information are applicable to their own lives.  There is no one single answer for everyone!

 

Alot of people like nice things, and many eschew material things.  Just because Buffett eats breakfast at McDonald's everyday, doesn't mean you should too.  He also flies around in a private jet and gets seats ringside to Floyd Mayweather fights.  A little extravagant don't you think?  But it sure sounds fun!

 

Some of you are incredibly anal, so you try and maximize every moment and dollar you have to squeeze out the most value you can...be it investing or buying avocados at the grocery store.  Some of you aren't that extreme, but like to save money where you can and find good investments.  And then there are those on here who like to act like they are frugal, but they do their grocery shopping at Whole Foods (before the discounts) and drive around in a new Range Rover.  So be it!  Each to their own!

 

So who cares if this lady retired at 28 years old!  That's great for her if that works for her.  I didn't even get my business started till I was 35, so her advice would have been of zero help to me.  But I directly and indirectly employ over 30 people and I essentially feel like I'm retired every day I go to work...so maybe both parties won!

 

You'd be better off not wasting time trying to defend something that doesn't need to be defended, and more of that time enjoying your life and building whatever the heck you want out of it...however you might get there!  Cheers!

[Liberty]

I don't see what retirement would give me. I already can read/watch-TV/invest/play as much as I'd want. Yeah, sure I would have even more time for these things, but not sure it would change much in my life or make me happier.

 

This is one of the problems with the word retirement, which I mentioned at the beginning of this thread. People read it and imagine this kind of stuff, when this is just one tiny subset of what someone can do with more freedom and time. Personally, I am way more productive than when I had a job because I only work on things that interest me, so I tend to do more of them.

 

Ask yourself if you would still do your current job if you weren't being paid? What would you change about it to make it even better? What other things interest you more?

 

If your current job is indeed your dream job and perfect, good for you! You are a rare bird. Stay there. Having financial independence makes any job better, so there's that too and I'm sure it helps. Any job is less fun when you live on the edge and wouldn't survive long without it (people on this forum are mostly way wealthier than average, so that's an atypical situation).

[Liberty]

You'd be better off not wasting time trying to defend something that doesn't need to be defended, and more of that time enjoying your life and building whatever the heck you want out of it...however you might get there!  Cheers!

 

Wise words. I suppose I just read some things and felt that with the readership of this forum (probably 1000 lurkers for every poster, this thread already has over 7k views) it would suck if some young people were exposed to this idea for the first time here and came out with the impression that all this was was BS coupon clipping for weak meek welfare queens being fooled by hypocritical charlatan frauds, etc. That just felt a bit sad to me.

 

But I think I've said what I had to say at this point. To each their own. I don't pretend this is for everyone, just that it's a nice option for some, and that this "retirement" isn't the stereotypical retirement for old people, it just means more time, freedom, control and less stress, not doing fewer things.

[Gamecock-YT]

 

You'd be better off not wasting time trying to defend something that doesn't need to be defended, and more of that time enjoying your life and building whatever the heck you want out of it...however you might get there!  Cheers!

 

Very well said.