The 28 year old retiree

[ICUMD]

Retire from what??? Life?  I'm sure Elon Musk is counting the days...

[rb]

Perhaps we should start a new "life and meaning of life" thread...  8)

 

Anyway, frugality/early-retirement/spending-money/meaning-of-life.

 

I mostly could retire if I wanted to. (The "mostly" part is US healthcare system and future implications of it.). I probably would not do it even if it was a sure thing and not "mostly".

 

I don't see what retirement would give me. I already can read/watch-TV/invest/play as much as I'd want. Yeah, sure I would have even more time for these things, but not sure it would change much in my life or make me happier.

 

In terms of contribution to society and this world, I'm probably making more contribution working where I am than striking out on my own and doing investing/whatever. I have very little interest in entrepreneurship. I have in the past done work for non-profits and I prefer arms-length involvement: I might be interested in their goals, but I am not interested in the day-to-day issues of running physical plant, doing fundraising, resolving internal issues, etc. I'd rather work at a company on things that I know how to do and are sometimes/mostly interesting. Yeah, sure there's stress sometimes, but it's like the guy who sold Buffett his company: 360 days a year it's OK and then 5 days a year I'd "sell my company and retire" (or "quit my job and retire"). So far I haven't met my Waterloo (to mix metaphors) and did not quit and retire.

 

I am not super-frugal and I am not super spendthrift. Cars are 14+ years and 5+ years old. House is too big, but nicely located and nice overall. We go out for food once in a week or so. We travel internationally probably once a year (parents are not in US + plus other vacation trips). I buy used books on Amazon if it's cheaper than Kindle. My TV is probably 7 years old by now, but it's 60" plasma... I buy clothes at TJ Maxx and wear them for ages. Anyway, there are things where I spend money and there are things where I don't.

 

I have very little interest in doing the manual work around the house. I fix some things, but I'm not interested in doing MMM type of repairs/etc. We have spent a bunch of money on house fixing/renovations, but possibly way less than some people who renovate constantly at 50K per room/whatever.

 

Overall, we are definitely not super frugal, likely middle of the road. Unlike some would claim, the fact that our salaries are high + investing has resulted in pretty nice "nest egg". And that's considering that we started from zero and started late in our lives. Yeah, $0 at age of 30. Not that this makes me a hero. Infotech salaries are rather obscene (though still quite lower than the WallStreet $2M in 5 years  ;) ).

 

Which reminds me. You guys know that saying "Nobody said on the death bed 'I wish I spent more time at the office'"? Well, I wish I spent more time at the office. Maybe I should start a blog about that and get cult following and ... profit!  8)

 

Peace.

This is actually really interesting. If I may add to it a little bit with and anecdote about my parents to add some more flavour.

 

My parents are deep in their 50s. They're pretty high earning. Not millions, but solidly top 2%. Their savings rate is insane and I'd say that they're pretty frugal - indeed they are really frugal at heart (both of them). But their frugality would be really weird for a frugal fundamentalist. The live in a home much smaller than what they can afford not because some grand plan. My dad likes the idea of a big and nice house, my mom really couldn't give a shit either way. But none of them like to clean or fix things, so house remains on the smaller side.

 

On top of that they buy used cars exclusively, but one drives a top line luxury car and one drives a bottom line Toyota. Both really like their cars and don't like each other's car. They read all the fliers and buy on sale. My dad can quote you appropriate prices per pound for most everything that is sold in grocery stores (including things that aren't sold per pound). Despite this exotics such as avocados and wild boar steaks are staples at their house. 2-3 pretty expensive vacations a year are standard, but they don't pay for cable.

 

I should also say that their savings and investments are way, way in excess of what they would need to retire without diminishing one iota of their lifestyle yet they continue to work. We have conversations about early retirement. They are thoroughly uninterested in it. The main reason.... what would they do instead? They really, really don't want to be entrepreneurs or run any kind of business. They don't want to learn a new trade or transform themselves in any way. They get about 5 weeks vacation from work so they get to do about as much traveling as they wan, and my mom -an avid reader - is running out of books to read. All in all the idea of retirement/early retirement is thoroughly uninteresting to them.

 

What they would ideally like is a workplace with less assholes or a less intensive workplace, maybe one where they can work 4 days a week. But alas that's not an option in today's society.

[Jurgis]

What they would ideally like is a workplace with less assholes or a less intensive workplace, maybe one where they can work 4 days a week. But alas that's not an option in today's society.

 

Thanks for mentioning this. I was going to write that I'd probably prefer to work 32 hour work weeks and then I forgot it. Like you say that's tough to come by in USA. Perhaps I should move to France...  ::)

 

 

Would I work in my present job if they did not pay me? Good question and tough question. If I could pick any job (for free or for pay), there are jobs a bit more attractive than mine. Not solo, self driven jobs but jobs at companies or universities. Why am I not there then? Not enough motivation, not being fond of banging on doors and interviewing, not being fond of changes, not driven enough, not having enough expertise (see "I wish I spent more time in the office"  ;) - yeah, I know this contradicts the 32 hour work week - so sue me 8) ). Yeah, these might sound like excuses and perhaps they are. ./shrug  8) "Retirement" would not solve these though.  8)

 

On the other hand, this question is a bit slippery and misleading. Is it bad if job has partial monetary motivation? Would I or any of you invest if the investment results were just leaderboard/fun/fame/whatever without financial payment?  8) Yeah, some people would still do it - some people do it via games. I wouldn't though. So I'd guess I like investing less than I like my job.  ;)

 

 

Edit: I forgot to mention one other thing. Everything I wrote is subject to change. 20 years ago I would have said something very different, 10 years ago too. It's likely I will say something different in 10 years. If nothing changes, it's boring, no?  8)

[rb]

What they would ideally like is a workplace with less assholes or a less intensive workplace, maybe one where they can work 4 days a week. But alas that's not an option in today's society.

 

Thanks for mentioning this. I was going to write that I'd probably prefer to work 32 hour work weeks and then I forgot it. Like you say that's tough to come by in USA. Perhaps I should move to France...  ::)

 

 

Would I work in my present job if they did not pay me? Good question and tough question. If I could pick any job (for free or for pay), there are jobs a bit more attractive than mine. Not solo, self driven jobs but jobs at companies or universities. Why am I not there then? Not enough motivation, not being fond of banging on doors and interviewing, not being fond of changes, not driven enough, not having enough expertise (see "I wish I spent more time in the office"  ;) - yeah, I know this contradicts the 32 hour work week - so sue me 8) ). Yeah, these might sound like excuses and perhaps they are. ./shrug  8) "Retirement" would not solve these though.  8)

 

On the other hand, this question is a bit slippery and misleading. Is it bad if job has partial monetary motivation? Would I or any of you invest if the investment results were just leaderboard/fun/fame/whatever without financial payment?  8) Yeah, some people would still do it - some people do it via games. I wouldn't though. So I'd guess I like investing less than I like my job.  ;)

If I may, you could also consider Germany, or the Netherlans. They both work just as low or lower hours than France.

 

I can understand what you're saying and can relate to my parents. As I said they would like a lower intensity work environment. But just like you, they do not like to knock on doors, they don't want to pitch, they just want to ply their trade, do what they do, just a little less. Now I'm sure they could find the idyllic work environment at a quarter of what they make now. But there's no way they would go for that. Why? Because that's usurious. They worked hard to get where they are, they're proud, and they won't let someone take advantage of them that way.

[writser]

If I may, you could also consider Germany, or the Netherlans. They both work just as low or lower hours than France.

 

Yeah. Working 4x9 or part-time or something similar is quite common here. Also you get much longer holidays. FWIW I think the 'early retirement' movement is typically North-American - you guys are working so hard to buy all your RV's, speedboats, bigger houses, flatter tv's and faster cars that you forget to enjoy life! The average guy in Greece has been living according to the early retirement principles for centuries. I'll leave it up to the reader to decide what is the better approach :) .

[RichardGibbons]

I think you are way exaggerating "sound and fury way out of proportion to the topic".

 

Maybe, but I've been reading the financial independence subreddit for about three years, and have seen quite a few of these articles.  Usually the vast majority of the comments are negative (which maybe is true for most articles on the web), but there are usually quite a few that, to me, are worded in ways that indicate the writer is having a strong emotional reaction.

 

Even in this thread, with presumably people open to financial strategies, a right-winger called people seeking financial independence "welfare kings/queens" (I note "right winger" because "welfare" usually has a host of negative connotations to them, comparable to a left-winger calling someone a fascist.)

 

Then in this article, one of the comments is:

 

They also have no pets, no kids, no real responsibilities. They are probably the type of people that don't eat all week and visit their parents on the weekend and eat like there is no tomorrow and do their laundry there. I wonder if one of their parents would be sick, would they stick around to help. Their parents perhaps still give them pocket money.

 

And on this article, some of the comments are:

 

Just think you millennials for every 10,000 of you that try this 1 of you will succeed.

 

My overall asssessment of thier plan is that is an act of mortgaging thier potential future to have a nice time in thier thirties...an idesallistic, yet entitled, way of thinking not uncommon to many of my generation.

 

These smug people think they can virtue signal that they are superior because they didn't have kids, didn't own a house so we should look up to them like they invented the light bulb.

 

It goes on.  Really, to me, the comments are frequently the most interesting parts of these stories because of the reactions.

 

I think the hypotheses proposed here about the origin of these comments seem plausible.  Thanks everyone.

[oddballstocks]

The truth is most people here are detached from the financial reality of most of the world.  If you can go to Harvard, or earn $100k+ you are intelligent enough to figure this stuff out.  You also have means most people could never even dream of.

 

The median household income is $50k, and that median has two kids.  That's tough.  You can live and survive on that, but you aren't saving 45% of your paycheck and investing.

 

When I listened to Dave Ramsey the most impressive callers were the ones who'd call in and say "We have six kids, my husband makes $33k a year and we paid off $125k in debt."  The way they did it was almost always the same.  They ate something basic and cheap (rice, beans, some other item that'd be derided by those on here as 'bad').  They live in a very small house, or in a trailer in the middle of no where.  These were the people with real discipline, they took their lifestyle down to almost zero to achieve a goal.  It wasn't like they skipped the daily latte and called it a sacrifice, they lived on nothing.

 

I think this idea that you're supposed to derive life satisfaction from your job is a weird American one too.  When I've been in a terrible work situation it's usually a combination of 30% actual bad situation and 70% my own attitude about it.  Sitting in a cube doing Excel is rarely terrible.  I've done plenty of manual labor jobs and factory work.  If that's what people are talking about as in being in a bad job then you have a point, but sitting in a plush office and saying you have to work late isn't.  On working late, have you ever tried to just leave? I had a mandatory late job, I got tired of being there late, just started to leave at 6, nothing happened.  Well one thing did happen, people suddenly thought I was some BSD for just rolling on my own, but we were there doing busy work anyways, something I pointed out to management.

 

My own 'bad job' involved a manager who was filled with rage and would come in screaming and yelling at people daily for things real and imagined.  I left there, it was truly bad.  I didn't enjoy going to work, hoping the boss would be MIA and when he did show up screaming, yelling and throwing things.  That is a bad job.

 

Sanjeev said it right.  You need to live how you think it best suits you within your means.  This whole "only buy something if it derives happiness" is total BS.  Life isn't lived a double blind experiment.  I can't live for a few years without a Lexus and then with one and sit back and say "what was my happiness index?"  I think the whole 'be happy' thing is stupid as well.  People pursuing that are chasing after some ghost.  It's almost the height of narcissism, do whatever it takes to make myself happy.  Leave a trail of ex-wives, kids, and disgusted employees in my wake so I feel good. 

 

As I've been reading this thread I keep wondering "What could I do if I 'retired' that I can't do now?" Working isn't my limitation on what I can do, it's other factors, my responsibilities to my wife and kids mostly.  If I wanted to sit and read all day I could do it right now, or go hiking, or relax by the pool and take a nap, or sleep in.  The only thing I can come up with is that I can't go thru-hiking the Appalachian Trail or something right now, but it's not my job (you need almost no cash to do it), it's that I have a family at home that I don't want to leave for 6mo.

 

One last item I find weird about the whole MMM, retirement extreme people.  They always talk about SUV's as this sign of gross waste.  I have an SUV, it's the biggest one made.  I paid $25k for the thing, it's used, and we used it as intended (hauling a ton of people and things, sometimes off-road).  Somehow I'm evil and wrecking the world and full of stupidity for buying it.  Yet if I paid $100k for an electric car it would somehow be a wise choice and I'd be a lauded for escaping from my gas guzzler.

[Liberty]

One last item I find weird about the whole MMM, retirement extreme people.  They always talk about SUV's as this sign of gross waste.  I have an SUV, it's the biggest one made.  I paid $25k for the thing, it's used, and we used it as intended (hauling a ton of people and things, sometimes off-road).  Somehow I'm evil and wrecking the world and full of stupidity for buying it.  Yet if I paid $100k for an electric car it would somehow be a wise choice and I'd be a lauded for escaping from my gas guzzler.

 

The point is that most people don't use them to haul tons of things and go off-road, so it is indeed a good symbol of gross waste. Doesn't mean it's accurate in 100% of cases, like any other symbol or example.

 

And MMM regularly makes jokes about Teslas and iPhones too.

 

I think the point is to do things for the right reasons, with your eyes open, understanding the costs and benefits. If you lease a big gas guzzler every 4 years because you want the image that a big SUV provides despite living in a suburb, never going off paved roads, and rarely carrying more than a few bag of groceries, you're putting a huge financial (ie. time) burden on yourself for not much gains. How many hours do you have to spend working to pay for all those leased SUVs and the gas they burn over a lifetime, and is it worth whatever benefit you have?

 

On the other hand, if you need towing and hauling and off-road capabilities, then it makes all the sense in the world to get a  SUV. MMM wouldn't disagree with that, he'd probably just recommend buying at least slightly used since these depreciate really fast the first couple years.

 

Buying a Tesla is also fine, as long as you know it's not a frugal option. Same with an iPhone. It's more about being good at making rational choices rather than just blindly keeping up with the jones or being too influenced by some outer scorecard (what will people think if I drive an old car? etc). It's just another manifestation of "price is what you pay, value is what you get".

[LC]

Hey guys, also let's consider the full time remote worker. I personally do this and it has changed my life. The 9-5 thing, with the commute before/after, what a time killer. Many of the reasons justifying early retirement can be gained without having a 2M nest egg to live off, by transitioning to working from home.

 

I know it can't be done for every job out there, but if it's possible I think the benefits far outweighs the negatives. You have much more control over your day AND you work way more efficiently. You can live anywhere, not just a high-cost money center city. It's easy to go on "vacations" and just work. Anywhere with wifi, you can visit and simply "work" as usual. Your days are much more relaxed as well, it's easy to go to the gym, cook a nice lunch, etc.

 

I personally work best late at night, so I can call into my daily meetings and then just take off and enjoy my day. Then 8 or 9 pm I'll start working and kill a full days work in 1/3 of the time.

 

Just a thought!

[boilermaker75]

 

One last item I find weird about the whole MMM, retirement extreme people.  They always talk about SUV's as this sign of gross waste.  I have an SUV, it's the biggest one made.  I paid $25k for the thing, it's used, and we used it as intended (hauling a ton of people and things, sometimes off-road).  Somehow I'm evil and wrecking the world and full of stupidity for buying it.  Yet if I paid $100k for an electric car it would somehow be a wise choice and I'd be a lauded for escaping from my gas guzzler.

 

I do have a Tesla on order, but it will be more polluting than my current ICE car, and probably your SUV, since the electricity where I live comes from burning coal. Looking objectively I will be the evil one!

[Liberty]

I do have a Tesla on order, but it will be more polluting than my current ICE car, and probably your SUV, since the electricity where I live comes from burning coal. Looking objectively I will be the evil one!

 

The difference won't be as large as it might seem since EVs are so much more efficient than ICEs (thermal efficiencies in the real world of maybe 30%, often less), so even charged 100% from coal they can be comparable with some gas cars (there's a range between a Prius and an Escalade, of course). The "virtual tailpipe" of the EV is also a lot farther away from where people breathe, and since they're mostly charged at night, it tends to use a coal plant when it's almost idle, rather than add to the day's peak and lead to demand for new plants. Also any time you use a Supercharger it likely won't be coal (https://electrek.co/2017/06/09/tesla-superchargers-solar-battery-grid-elon-musk/).

 

If you live in a sunny part of the world, you might want to look into putting solar panels on your roof. In many situations it can actually lower your monthly energy bills even paying/leasing the system (can be amortized over a long period), or you can sign up for "green power" with your utility and pay a bit more so that your payments go to non-coal sources of power (https://www.nrel.gov/analysis/green-power.html).

 

Or you might not care about any of this and do nothing, but chances are that over time the grid where you are will get cleaner and your car will automatically get cleaner too, unlike an ICE.

[boilermaker75]

I do have a Tesla on order, but it will be more polluting than my current ICE car, and probably your SUV, since the electricity where I live comes from burning coal. Looking objectively I will be the evil one!

 

The difference won't be as large as it might seem since EVs are so much more efficient than ICEs (thermal efficiencies in the real world of maybe 30%, often less), so even charged 100% from coal they can be comparable with some gas cars (there's a range between a Prius and an Escalade, of course). The "virtual tailpipe" of the EV is also a lot farther away from where people breathe, and since they're mostly charged at night, it tends to use a coal plant when it's almost idle, rather than add to the day's peak and lead to demand for new plants. Also any time you use a Supercharger it likely won't be coal (https://electrek.co/2017/06/09/tesla-superchargers-solar-battery-grid-elon-musk/).

 

If you live in a sunny part of the world, you might want to look into putting solar panels on your roof. In many situations it can actually lower your monthly energy bills even paying/leasing the system (can be amortized over a long period), or you can sign up for "green power" with your utility and pay a bit more so that your payments go to non-coal sources of power.

 

Or you might not care about any of this and do nothing, but chances are that over time the grid where you are will get cleaner and your car will automatically get cleaner too, unlike an ICE.

 

There is a supercharger station about 5 miles from me. Maybe by the time I get my model 3 this station will be off the grid!

[Liberty]

There is a supercharger station about 5 miles from me. Maybe by the time I get my model 3 this station will be off the grid!

 

I can't find a source right now, but I think that even if it isn't off-grid, that Tesla is still sourcing its power from clean sources. This doesn't mean that the actual electrons at the station are from those sources, but that Tesla's power bill $ goes to clean sources rather than the local coal plants (since the electrons are fungible, it's more or less the same... it encourages the equivalent production of clean power to that used by the charging station somewhere else).

[Jurgis]

Hey guys, also let's consider the full time remote worker. I personally do this and it has changed my life. The 9-5 thing, with the commute before/after, what a time killer. Many of the reasons justifying early retirement can be gained without having a 2M nest egg to live off, by transitioning to working from home.

 

I know it can't be done for every job out there, but if it's possible I think the benefits far outweighs the negatives. You have much more control over your day AND you work way more efficiently. You can live anywhere, not just a high-cost money center city. It's easy to go on "vacations" and just work. Anywhere with wifi, you can visit and simply "work" as usual. Your days are much more relaxed as well, it's easy to go to the gym, cook a nice lunch, etc.

 

I personally work best late at night, so I can call into my daily meetings and then just take off and enjoy my day. Then 8 or 9 pm I'll start working and kill a full days work in 1/3 of the time.

 

Just a thought!

 

My wife works from home full time. I work from home some days (and nights and weekends). I would not want to do it 100% though. Lack of direct contact with colleagues and socialization sucks.

 

But yeah for some this is the way to go. Our company is very spread out and mostly work-at-home friendly. We have people working from home in Alaska, boondocks of Maine, various Euro countries, etc.

[Liberty]

Hey guys, also let's consider the full time remote worker. I personally do this and it has changed my life. The 9-5 thing, with the commute before/after, what a time killer. Many of the reasons justifying early retirement can be gained without having a 2M nest egg to live off, by transitioning to working from home.

 

I know it can't be done for every job out there, but if it's possible I think the benefits far outweighs the negatives. You have much more control over your day AND you work way more efficiently. You can live anywhere, not just a high-cost money center city. It's easy to go on "vacations" and just work. Anywhere with wifi, you can visit and simply "work" as usual. Your days are much more relaxed as well, it's easy to go to the gym, cook a nice lunch, etc.

 

I personally work best late at night, so I can call into my daily meetings and then just take off and enjoy my day. Then 8 or 9 pm I'll start working and kill a full days work in 1/3 of the time.

 

Just a thought!

 

My wife works from home full time. I work from home some days (and nights and weekends). I would not want to do it 100% though. Lack of direct contact with colleagues and socialization sucks.

 

But yeah for some this is the way to go. Our company is very spread out and mostly work-at-home friendly. We have people working from home in Alaska, boondocks of Maine, various Euro countries, etc.

 

I worked remotely for 11 years. I've known people who it has driven crazy (mostly extroverts), but it works perfectly with my personality type, which is why I knew I'd have the discipline to be productive at home without a traditional job.

 

I used to sometimes work late too until we had our first child 3 years ago, then that went out the window... Now my wife is pregnant with our second, so I'll probably enjoy the flexibility when the kid comes...

[valcont]

 

Even in this thread, with presumably people open to financial strategies, a right-winger called people seeking financial independence "welfare kings/queens" (I note "right winger" because "welfare" usually has a host of negative connotations to them, comparable to a left-winger calling someone a fascist.)

 

You completely missed the irony of the comment. A typical liberal blowhard who jumps to conclusions without understanding the context. No one is objecting to the financial independence. But FI is not a goal , its an outcome of a lifestyle worth living . We were discussing hypocrisy and early retirement. I was pointing out the similarities between these "early retirees", who hack into the social welfare systems, with the poor/minorities who may have good reasons to do the same. If we already have the label for the latter, why not use the same?

 

To give you an example of how they hack the social welfare system? Read the following article. This sloth has $1.7m in assets but is still mooching off of Obamacare subsidies:

 

http://rootofgood.com/obamacare_makes_early_retirement_easier_and_more_secure/

 

And this is why I don't like socialized medicine. Socialized medicine was a contract between younger and older/weaker population in which the latter paid their dues or are unable to. But it ends up incentivizing the leeches/unproductive/useless population to feed off of hardworking "cubicle" dwellers who then judge them for their foolishness. Another "hack" similar to getting credit card miles or click baiting. A morally bankrupt life lacking higher ideals.

 

And what does this MMM/other FI bloggers preach? Suck it up at the job that you hate for 5-10 years, cut your expenses to the bone and then hunker down. I have a better way. You don't suck it up and waste years of your life, you get out right away and do what works for you. Yes the path is unknown/uncertain and needs courage,determination and self esteem. But that is what it takes. Read up on all the great people and tell me what path did they follow?

 

Its much easier to hunker down, deprive yourself and save for "better" days. And tell you what, those better days will never come because you get into this scarcity mindset. I have yet to see one successful person who made it by being cautious, risk averse or by hacking it. Everyone took a huge risk weather its the time, money or the lifestyle.

 

And don't give me this bullshit about rampant consumerism. Another escape for the do nothings. Rampant consumerism is why someone laid down those pipes across the oceans so that you can use the internet to communicate and "choose" not to work. Otherwise you would be flying pigeons.

[Cigarbutt]

Mr. valcont,

Some condescendance seeps out of your post.

You seem to know the Truth. Good for you.

Your comments about socialized medicine have some merits but define a difficult reference point versus starting a useful conversation.

 

The definition of Great is a personal one.

 

Perhaps one comment about consumerism and the "you can't thank me enough for the blanket of comfort I provide you with" allusions.

 

In another life, I used to park my used Toyota Tercel in between luxury cars in the staff parking. My choice.

When I meet now some of the owners of those cars, the only explanation they can internalize is that, somehow, only hypocrite leeches can pull it off.

I respectfully disagree.

 

[petec]

I have only read the last two posts in this thread so apologies if this is totally irrelevant, but my view is it is hard to call those with access to socialised medicine leeches because the whole point of socialised medicine is we all have access to it.  Are we all leeches?

 

Don't get me wrong, I tend to be at the free market end of just about every economic discussion, and I tend towards it in medicine too because I think it drives more innovation and lower costs.  BUT I live in a country with world class medicine available free to all at a cost of 10% of GDP, and I use it.  Am I a leech?  I have significant net assets and good income and I pay a ton in tax.  I don't consider myself to be a leech.  Nor do I consider someone poorer than me to be a leech simply because they get sick and use the system that I also have access to.

 

There are long term unemployed living on benefits in this country who are systematically taking from the system what others put in.  That's a choice, and that makes you a leech.  But I don't believe people choose to get sick, even if they do sometimes make bad life choices that lead to it.  Socialised medicine is an insurance policy.  If it is the cheapest way to deliver insurance then I'm in favour.  (I'm not sure it is - Singapore suggests not.)

[John Hjorth]

Exactly, Pete,

 

The discussion basis for healthcare is simply just different among fellow board members, based on different local societal structures & designs. One has to understand the societal design & structure of the society of the board member one is discussing with.

 

- - o 0 o - - -

 

I live in a society, that is designed similar to yours. Healthcare is a societal mutual insurance, where the insurance premium is a tax. Personally, I pay it gladly. There are ongoing discussions about efficiency, yes - all the time.

[RichardGibbons]

You completely missed the irony of the comment. A typical liberal blowhard who jumps to conclusions without understanding the context. No one is objecting to the financial independence. But FI is not a goal , its an outcome of a lifestyle worth living . We were discussing hypocrisy and early retirement. I was pointing out the similarities between these "early retirees", who hack into the social welfare systems, with the poor/minorities who may have good reasons to do the same. If we already have the label for the latter, why not use the same?

 

I believe that I understood the "irony" in your comment, but I also viewed the comment as pejorative, just like I'm interpreting "liberal blowhard" as pejorative.  If you actually intended the terms "welfare king/queen" and "liberal blowhard" as neutral descriptions, then I did completely misunderstand what you were trying to express.

 

(When I said you were a "right-winger", I didn't mean it pejoratively, but rather an accurate description helping other readers understand why I thought you viewed "welfare kings/queens" as pejorative.  Sorry if you interpreted that as an insult, but I don't think there's anything wrong with being right-wing.)

[rb]

This article in yesterday's Times seems pertinent to this discussion.

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/31/opinion/sunday/silicon-valley-work-life-balance-.html

[LC]

Holy crap that is so sad. Or great, if it works out! Who am I to judge.

 

‘The expectation is not that you should work smart, it’s that you should work hard. It’s just do, do, do, until you can’t do anymore.’ ”

The other great thing about working from home is nobody knows how much you are working! You could be up 18 hours working, or 3 hours. Nobody really knows. As long as the work is delivered on-time and in good standing, no problemo!

[rb]

Holy crap that is so sad. Or great, if it works out! Who am I to judge.

 

‘The expectation is not that you should work smart, it’s that you should work hard. It’s just do, do, do, until you can’t do anymore.’ ”

The other great thing about working from home is nobody knows how much you are working! You could be up 18 hours working, or 3 hours. Nobody really knows. As long as the work is delivered on-time and in good standing, no problemo!

Yea. Basically the idea of work in the US is being horribly twisted and it's making people miserable. The new ideas are also leaking out of your borders and it's also making other people miserable.

[Jurgis]

Holy crap that is so sad. Or great, if it works out! Who am I to judge.

 

‘The expectation is not that you should work smart, it’s that you should work hard. It’s just do, do, do, until you can’t do anymore.’ ”

The other great thing about working from home is nobody knows how much you are working! You could be up 18 hours working, or 3 hours. Nobody really knows. As long as the work is delivered on-time and in good standing, no problemo!

Yea. Basically the idea of work in the US is being horribly twisted and it's making people miserable. The new ideas are also leaking out of your borders and it's also making other people miserable.

 

Fake news!  8)

 

Seriously.

 

OK, I haven't worked in Silly Valley. But I have friends there. Even ones who did startups. Nobody worked 80 hour work weeks. And in the big companies pretty much everyone works 40 hour work weeks, maybe a bit more once in a while.

 

Yeah, I guess there really are companies (startups) where people work 80 hour weeks. Facebook in the past. Tesla/Space-X likely. Yeah, sometimes people overwork and burn out, etc. But most of this is Silly Valley macho myths that are then taken by press as admirable or deplorable depending on the author.

 

Of course, I could also say that I work 80 hours per week if I counted my official work + investing. 8)

[ScottHall]

I work when I want to work and don't when I don't want to. This is also an option, if people search it out.