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Why We Sleep - Matthew Walker

Liberty

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Liberty Newbie

Liberty

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This should be good. Part one of three:

 

https://peterattiamd.com/matthewwalker1/

 

Update: I've had a chance to listen to it and it's great. Highly recommended. Can't wait for part 2 and 3.

 

I'm re-listening to this one (the three parts) a second time. So many important things, impossible to retain it all after just one listen.

 

I also got my Oura ring since, which helps a lot with tracking how I sleep.

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  • 6 months later...
NeverLoseMoney Newbie

NeverLoseMoney

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Some critical points about this book: Matthew Walker's "Why We Sleep" Is Riddled with Scientific and Factual Errors.

 

It seems much of the book is not as scientifically accurate as Walker makes it out to be, so I don't think anyone should be too worried if you don't sleep eight hours a night but feel fine. I usually get around seven hours of sleep a night, sometimes a bit less, but feel fully rested.

 

FWIW: I read the book and enjoyed it at the time.

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netnet Newbie

netnet

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So we have a renowned professor, writing on his area of expertise vs random internet dude.  hmm.  I only spot checked one thing, Guzey got it wrong and that was all I needed. 

 

Now I was admittedly predisposed not to agree with Guzey, but I also should not have been able to find an error/inconsistency however minor in 5 minute review.  so....

 

(Note: this is a continent away from my circle of competence, so you can judge that as well.)

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Spekulatius Newbie

Spekulatius

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So we have a renowned professor, writing on his area of expertise vs random internet dude.  hmm.  I only spot checked one thing, Guzey got it wrong and that was all I needed. 

 

Now I was admittedly predisposed not to agree with Guzey, but I also should not have been able to find an error/inconsistency however minor in 5 minute review.  so....

 

(Note: this is a continent away from my circle of competence, so you can judge that as well.)

 

I wouldn’t lose any sleep over it.

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Liberty Newbie

Liberty

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Yeah, I had a look at it, and I can mostly see how he's not talking necessarily about the same things as Walker (ie. a lot of epidemiology is dubious because you can't untangle the variables and confounding factors and there's a lot of bad self-reporting.. See this series on studies... for example, does a cohort that sleep more also has a higher tendency to depression/health problems? Is a cohort that sleeps less, but less sick, skewed by young parents, so benefiting from young age, not less sleep, vs older cohort?). Matt Walker, the head of a sleep lab who knows everybody else doing studies in the field, is likely taking into account more data and more different kinds of sources and weighting them differently based on their strengths and weaknesses, while this dude has never studied the field before and spent some time on Google Scholar for a while, apparently with the explicit goal of contradicting the book (sample bias? cherry picking?)... it’s analogous to going to your doctor and talking about the stuff you googled the night before and claiming you now have expertise.

 

I'd put more weight on mechanistic studies or studies about how humans sleep when they're out in nature without alarm clocks and artificial lights and such, for example, than large scale self-reported surveys with a thousand confounding factors.

 

Anyway, good to raise questions, but I've seen some people jump on this and declare the whole book worthless (probably because they just want to go back to not caring about sleep -- motivated reasoning), which is just bad thinking.

 

Even the WHO sleep epidemic thing.. I've Google many other pre-book references to those terms. There's a lot of people at the WHO. Did they use those words in a conference but not in writing? Is Matt Walker describing their research with different words than them, yet in a fair way? There's a lot of gray zones that could be looked into before calling something made up BS...

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  • 1 month later...
boilermaker75 Newbie

boilermaker75

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Nice patience, just like a good value investor waiting for your price! I bought it two days ago  :(

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Jurgis Newbie

Jurgis

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Nice patience, just like a good value investor waiting for your price! I bought it two days ago  :(

 

LOL, thanks. I buy some books at full price too...  ???

Got $5 for ebooks if you spend $20 on ebooks deal expiring tomorrow. Not sure if I'm gonna figure out another $15.01 to spend on something.  ::)

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boilermaker75 Newbie

boilermaker75

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Nice patience, just like a good value investor waiting for your price! I bought it two days ago  :(

 

LOL, thanks. I buy some books at full price too...  ???

Got $5 for ebooks if you spend $20 on ebooks deal expiring tomorrow. Not sure if I'm gonna figure out another $15.01 to spend on something.  ::)

 

That $20 promotion is why I went ahead and purchased Why We Sleep. Each semester I give a couple of lectures (This Spring will be my 76th semester teaching!) on "How to Learn." One think I talk about is thet the role of sleeping for learning. So I wanted to read "Why We Sleep" during the Holiday break to see if there is anything I can add to my lectures.

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Cigarbutt Newbie

Cigarbutt

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Humble contribution.

Disclosure:

1- This is an investment board but the topic is interesting and the methodology, fascinating.

2- Mr. Walker's work is interesting and worth discussing (debating).

3- I've appreciated better sleeping hygiene in the last 10 years and one of this year's resolution is to fine-tune it.

4- I have relevant experience in evaluating the soundness of conclusions such as those mentioned by Mr. Walker (evaluation of evidence, cause and effect analysis, statistical methodology etc)

 

A major potential pitfall is the handling of statistical correlations into relative risks and, eventually into a cause and effect framework. Mr. Walker appears to be very well aware of this but the pitfalls are significant and most of the studies mentioned are correlation-type studies which constitute a starting point for the thought process but replication of findings, complementary analysis with using specific criteria and formal experiments are essential foundational steps for sound and robust conclusions.

 

This is not a formal and detailed review of everything, but here are some comments.

 

A) The graph showing the relationship between sleep duration and diabetes and related study (studies) share significant potential pitfalls:

1-In order to show a significant correlation or to consider a cause and effect relationship, one needs to rely on an underlying coherent mechanism. The scenarios mentioned are possible but do not fit easily into built knowledge and best evidence (at least up to now).

2-There could simply be a correlation with another independent confounding variable explaining the correlation. These studies use statistical tools to control for confounding variables but these tools are very crude and meta-analyses often include poorly designed studies. For instance, obesity may explain better poor sleeping patterns and higher incidence of diabetes (through very well described mechanisms) and this hypothesis would constitute, from a coherence point of view, a better explanation than poor sleeping causing obesity and diabetes.

3-When trying to move from correlation to causation, a classical tool to use is the dose-response relationship which should be relatively proportional and coherent. In this case, the inverse J-shaped curve (which is really U-shaped) is hard to reconcile with a coherent explanation. If reducing sleep duration causes an increased incidence of diabetes, why would increasing sleep duration also cause an increased incidence of diabetes?

 

B) The relationship between sleep or disturbance in the circadian rhythm and cancer is controversial. However, much of present conclusions rely on poor foundations. There was a 'landmark' study (in Denmark) published around 2012 showing a "clear" link between working night shifts and the occurrence of breast cancer. In fact, many European jurisdictions have adopted rules to compensate women developing breast cancer using night shift exposure criteria. However, further studies have been less convincing and more recent work, including reviews and meta-analyses, have shown that the correlation likely is not significant under most circumstances. The reason for this updated conclusion is related to the fact that 'correlation' results that had been published were not replicated and did not survive well to more rigorous trials or analyses.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41416-019-0485-7

 

My humble message is that one should tread carefully here before jumping to conclusions but this will be interesting to follow.

 

BTW, this line of work is interesting and may be helpful in evaluating investment targets such as JNJ, Bayer etc where legal potential liabilities are significant and need to be discounted.

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DCG Newbie

DCG

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Does the book cover ways to actually help you sleep better (is that in the appendix?)? I downloaded a preview on my kindle and read the part it lets you read for free, but haven't read the whole thing yet. I'm curious about what he says in that appendix section, if someone minds sharing/summarizing it (at least if it contains anything different than the usual advice for sleeping).

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Cigarbutt Newbie

Cigarbutt

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^I guess it's back to the basics.

Here's a recently updated link that needs further updating, as far as the 2010 reference is concerned:

https://fastlifehacks.com/matthew-walker-12-tips-for-good-sleep/

 

What works incredibly well for me is to go through an intense 3-hr outside aerobic training routine in the afternoon, something which I'm seconds away from. :)

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vinod1 Newbie

vinod1

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Nice patience, just like a good value investor waiting for your price! I bought it two days ago  :(

 

LOL, thanks. I buy some books at full price too...  ???

Got $5 for ebooks if you spend $20 on ebooks deal expiring tomorrow. Not sure if I'm gonna figure out another $15.01 to spend on something.  ::)

 

That $20 promotion is why I went ahead and purchased Why We Sleep. Each semester I give a couple of lectures (This Spring will be my 76th semester teaching!) on "How to Learn." One think I talk about is thet the role of sleeping for learning. So I wanted to read "Why We Sleep" during the Holiday break to see if there is anything I can add to my lectures.

 

boilermaker75.

 

Wow! That is impressive.

 

If possible, could you please share any details for those of us who are not in a position to take your course? Any pointers to blogs or teaching material you can share would be very helpful. If it is an online course please do provide links.

 

Always interested in the "How to Learn" category both for myself and for my kids. And I am sure many board members would likewise be interested.

 

Thanks

 

Vinod

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vinod1 Newbie

vinod1

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Matthew Walker recent post responding to some of the questions/criticisms:

 

https://sleepdiplomat.wordpress.com/2019/12/19/why-we-sleep-responses-to-questions-from-readers/

 

Liberty,

 

Thanks for all the bringing all the sleep resources into this thread. Very helpful.

 

I know you have mentioned something about Vitamin D. Could you please share any resources that you found helpful in this area?

 

I mostly follow the evolutionary logic that it is best to be in line with whatever humans have evolved over the thousands of years. This goes for both diet and sleep as well and your thinking seems to be similar as well.

 

What I do not understand with Vitamin D debate is how we might not be getting enough of it. Is it related to not being as much outdoors? Sorry for the diversion, but if you want me to send a PM, I would do so.

 

Thanks

 

Vinod

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boilermaker75 Newbie

boilermaker75

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Posted

 

Nice patience, just like a good value investor waiting for your price! I bought it two days ago  :(

 

LOL, thanks. I buy some books at full price too...  ???

Got $5 for ebooks if you spend $20 on ebooks deal expiring tomorrow. Not sure if I'm gonna figure out another $15.01 to spend on something.  ::)

 

That $20 promotion is why I went ahead and purchased Why We Sleep. Each semester I give a couple of lectures (This Spring will be my 76th semester teaching!) on "How to Learn." One think I talk about is thet the role of sleeping for learning. So I wanted to read "Why We Sleep" during the Holiday break to see if there is anything I can add to my lectures.

 

boilermaker75.

 

Wow! That is impressive.

 

If possible, could you please share any details for those of us who are not in a position to take your course? Any pointers to blogs or teaching material you can share would be very helpful. If it is an online course please do provide links.

 

Always interested in the "How to Learn" category both for myself and for my kids. And I am sure many board members would likewise be interested.

 

Thanks

 

Vinod

 

I'm actually working on making these more polished and updating the material. When I do and get them recorded, in a couple of months, they will appear at https://nanohub.org/groups/u

 

But for now,

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Liberty Newbie

Liberty

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Matthew Walker recent post responding to some of the questions/criticisms:

 

https://sleepdiplomat.wordpress.com/2019/12/19/why-we-sleep-responses-to-questions-from-readers/

 

Liberty,

 

Thanks for all the bringing all the sleep resources into this thread. Very helpful.

 

I know you have mentioned something about Vitamin D. Could you please share any resources that you found helpful in this area?

 

I mostly follow the evolutionary logic that it is best to be in line with whatever humans have evolved over the thousands of years. This goes for both diet and sleep as well and your thinking seems to be similar as well.

 

What I do not understand with Vitamin D debate is how we might not be getting enough of it. Is it related to not being as much outdoors? Sorry for the diversion, but if you want me to send a PM, I would do so.

 

Thanks

 

Vinod

 

Indeed, we're indoors a lot more, wear more clothes, many of us live at higher latitudes than is ideal, etc. We also produce less of it as we age. Ideally, you'd get a blood test to see your serum levels and then take supplementation to bring your levels to within the optimal range (take gelcaps - not dry tablets - at mealtime, as it is fat-soluble and better absorbed with food).

 

I don't have the studies and research I did at the time handy, but that should all be fairly easy to find. I take 5,000 UI/day during the summer and 6-8,000 UI/day during the winter (I'm a 6'1" male in Canada, YMMV).

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vinod1 Newbie

vinod1

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Nice patience, just like a good value investor waiting for your price! I bought it two days ago  :(

 

LOL, thanks. I buy some books at full price too...  ???

Got $5 for ebooks if you spend $20 on ebooks deal expiring tomorrow. Not sure if I'm gonna figure out another $15.01 to spend on something.  ::)

 

That $20 promotion is why I went ahead and purchased Why We Sleep. Each semester I give a couple of lectures (This Spring will be my 76th semester teaching!) on "How to Learn." One think I talk about is thet the role of sleeping for learning. So I wanted to read "Why We Sleep" during the Holiday break to see if there is anything I can add to my lectures.

 

boilermaker75.

 

Wow! That is impressive.

 

If possible, could you please share any details for those of us who are not in a position to take your course? Any pointers to blogs or teaching material you can share would be very helpful. If it is an online course please do provide links.

 

Always interested in the "How to Learn" category both for myself and for my kids. And I am sure many board members would likewise be interested.

 

Thanks

 

Vinod

 

I'm actually working on making these more polished and updating the material. When I do and get them recorded, in a couple of months, they will appear at https://nanohub.org/groups/u

 

But for now,

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thank you!

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vinod1 Newbie

vinod1

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Matthew Walker recent post responding to some of the questions/criticisms:

 

https://sleepdiplomat.wordpress.com/2019/12/19/why-we-sleep-responses-to-questions-from-readers/

 

Liberty,

 

Thanks for all the bringing all the sleep resources into this thread. Very helpful.

 

I know you have mentioned something about Vitamin D. Could you please share any resources that you found helpful in this area?

 

I mostly follow the evolutionary logic that it is best to be in line with whatever humans have evolved over the thousands of years. This goes for both diet and sleep as well and your thinking seems to be similar as well.

 

What I do not understand with Vitamin D debate is how we might not be getting enough of it. Is it related to not being as much outdoors? Sorry for the diversion, but if you want me to send a PM, I would do so.

 

Thanks

 

Vinod

 

Indeed, we're indoors a lot more, wear more clothes, many of us live at higher latitudes than is ideal, etc. We also produce less of it as we age. Ideally, you'd get a blood test to see your serum levels and then take supplementation to bring your levels to within the optimal range (take gelcaps - not dry tablets - at mealtime, as it is fat-soluble and better absorbed with food).

 

I don't have the studies and research I did at the time handy, but that should all be fairly easy to find. I take 5,000 UI/day during the summer and 6-8,000 UI/day during the winter (I'm a 6'1" male in Canada, YMMV).

 

Thanks Liberty!

 

On a related topic, what do you think of need for sunscreen? It seems to me that humans have evolved to be in the sun, so cannot see why it would be needed. Any thoughts or research you have done on this?

 

Vinod

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Liberty Newbie

Liberty

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Thanks Liberty!

 

On a related topic, what do you think of need for sunscreen? It seems to me that humans have evolved to be in the sun, so cannot see why it would be needed. Any thoughts or research you have done on this?

 

Vinod

 

I've seen both sides of the argument.. I ended up falling on the side of using sunscreen and getting more Vit D through supplementation.

 

I think humans throughout evolutionary time mostly didn't live long enough to worry too much about skin cancers and skin aging (the sun will make your skin visibly age much faster), a lot of the problems happened after reproduction age, which is an evolutionary blind spot, and throughout most of that time most humans probably had darker skin pigmentation than I do, which also provides some natural protection. There's also issues with the ozone layer being damaged in post-industrial times (some of that has been partially corrected by banning CFCs and such, but not entirely).

 

That's my vague understanding of the situation. I still get plenty of sun without sunscreen, but if I know I'm going to be out for a long time in the sun not being covered too much, I always try to wear good sunscreen now.

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vinod1 Newbie

vinod1

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Thanks Liberty!

 

On a related topic, what do you think of need for sunscreen? It seems to me that humans have evolved to be in the sun, so cannot see why it would be needed. Any thoughts or research you have done on this?

 

Vinod

 

I've seen both sides of the argument.. I ended up falling on the side of using sunscreen and getting more Vit D through supplementation.

 

I think humans throughout evolutionary time mostly didn't live long enough to worry too much about skin cancers and skin aging (the sun will make your skin visibly age much faster), a lot of the problems happened after reproduction age, which is an evolutionary blind spot, and throughout most of that time most humans probably had darker skin pigmentation than I do, which also provides some natural protection. There's also issues with the ozone layer being damaged in post-industrial times (some of that has been partially corrected by banning CFCs and such, but not entirely).

 

That's my vague understanding of the situation. I still get plenty of sun without sunscreen, but if I know I'm going to be out for a long time in the sun not being covered too much, I always try to wear good sunscreen now.

 

Excellent points! That makes a lot of sense.

 

I was recently talking about evolution with a biology professor and she made the point that evolution cared (in terms of increasing your chances of survival) only if it helped in reproduction. That is why women live longer than men, because older women help their daughters care for the children, which in turn led to women having more children. So evolutionary wise there is an advantage for mothers to have their grand mother live longer. Men, apparently no so much :)

 

Thank you!

 

Vinod

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Liberty Newbie

Liberty

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Thanks Liberty!

 

On a related topic, what do you think of need for sunscreen? It seems to me that humans have evolved to be in the sun, so cannot see why it would be needed. Any thoughts or research you have done on this?

 

Vinod

 

I've seen both sides of the argument.. I ended up falling on the side of using sunscreen and getting more Vit D through supplementation.

 

I think humans throughout evolutionary time mostly didn't live long enough to worry too much about skin cancers and skin aging (the sun will make your skin visibly age much faster), a lot of the problems happened after reproduction age, which is an evolutionary blind spot, and throughout most of that time most humans probably had darker skin pigmentation than I do, which also provides some natural protection. There's also issues with the ozone layer being damaged in post-industrial times (some of that has been partially corrected by banning CFCs and such, but not entirely).

 

That's my vague understanding of the situation. I still get plenty of sun without sunscreen, but if I know I'm going to be out for a long time in the sun not being covered too much, I always try to wear good sunscreen now.

 

Excellent points! That makes a lot of sense.

 

I was recently talking about evolution with a biology professor and she made the point that evolution cared (in terms of increasing your chances of survival) only if it helped in reproduction. That is why women live longer than men, because older women help their daughters care for the children, which in turn led to women having more children. So evolutionary wise there is an advantage for mothers to have their grand mother live longer. Men, apparently no so much :)

 

Thank you!

 

Vinod

 

It's not quite as simple as that, but yes, things that tend to happen after reproduction don't get encoded (or at least, not directly, which also leads to the interesting stuff in epigenetic).. That's why aging and the diseases of aging aren't programmed, but rather, a blind spot that evolution hasn't had a time to solve against because for most of humanity's existence, there were few very old people, and they didn't reproduce. There can be secondary effects, like having longer-lived adults helping the germ-line indirectly (ie. grand-parents increasing the chance of survival of their grand-kids).. I'm no expert, but I remember that at the time (10-12 years ago), I learned a lot from this series of posts:

 

https://www.lesswrong.com/s/MH2b8NfWv22dBtrs8

 

Of course reading Darwin's Origins of Species is recommended as a good starting point, but this book is also a good place to learn:

 

https://www.amazon.com/Adaptation-Natural-Selection-Christopher-Williams/dp/0691026157

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