Alternative Investments

[Castanza]

Curious is anyone on here invests in other types of assets. Artwork, collectible automobiles, guns & ammo, wines, antiques, etc?

 

What are your views on the markets for said assets?

 

Why do or don't you invest in these types of assets?

 

Side: I couldn't find a post regarding the topic, but feel free to point it out if there is one.

 

 

[Gregmal]

Ill get some more after greater thought but the first that come to mind, and my best performing are vintage baseball/hockey cards.

 

The Gretzky RC Topps/OPC has been a 10 bagger the past 6-8 years. Check out the 52 Topps Mantle as well. You have many of the qualities of other great investments there especially if you buying graded, which is the only way to go.

 

These things started as a hobby since I was maybe 5 and of course as I evolved became a way to invest with an edge as well.

 

Have a discontinued version of the Walther PPK7 James Bond gun as well, but dont have any idea what the market is for something like that. Probably not worth more than a couple grand either.

[Spekulatius]

Ill get some more after greater thought but the first that come to mind, and my best performing are vintage baseball/hockey cards.

 

The Gretzky RC Topps/OPC has been a 10 bagger the past 6-8 years. Check out the 52 Topps Mantle as well. You have many of the qualities of other great investments there especially if you buying graded, which is the only way to go.

 

These things started as a hobby since I was maybe 5 and of course as I evolved became a way to invest with an edge as well.

 

Have a discontinued version of the Walther PPK7 James Bond gun as well, but dont have any idea what the market is for something like that. Probably not worth more than a couple grand either.

 

Is the “James Bond PPK” a special edition? If, not this is pretty mondane pistol , as it was the police service pistol in many states in Germany. Its not even that great of a pistol. No idea, but I don’t think it’s worth more than $500 equivalent in Germany (gun market is small there however, due to strict gun laws).

[Gregmal]

Ill get some more after greater thought but the first that come to mind, and my best performing are vintage baseball/hockey cards.

 

The Gretzky RC Topps/OPC has been a 10 bagger the past 6-8 years. Check out the 52 Topps Mantle as well. You have many of the qualities of other great investments there especially if you buying graded, which is the only way to go.

 

These things started as a hobby since I was maybe 5 and of course as I evolved became a way to invest with an edge as well.

 

Have a discontinued version of the Walther PPK7 James Bond gun as well, but dont have any idea what the market is for something like that. Probably not worth more than a couple grand either.

 

Is the “James Bond PPK” a special edition? If, not this is pretty mondäne pistol , as it was the police service pistol in many states in Germany. Its not even that great of a pistol. no idea, but I don’t think it’s worth more than $500 equivalent in Germany (gun market is small there however, due to small gun laws).

 

Always been a Bond fan and bought one maybe a decade ago for about $750 USD. Not as an investment but just cuz. So your figures are probably right. Heard a couple years later the model was discontinued.

[Castanza]

Ill get some more after greater thought but the first that come to mind, and my best performing are vintage baseball/hockey cards.

 

The Gretzky RC Topps/OPC has been a 10 bagger the past 6-8 years. Check out the 52 Topps Mantle as well. You have many of the qualities of other great investments there especially if you buying graded, which is the only way to go.

 

These things started as a hobby since I was maybe 5 and of course as I evolved became a way to invest with an edge as well.

 

Have a discontinued version of the Walther PPK7 James Bond gun as well, but dont have any idea what the market is for something like that. Probably not worth more than a couple grand either.

 

Is the “James Bond PPK” a special edition? If, not this is pretty mondäne pistol , as it was the police service pistol in many states in Germany. Its not even that great of a pistol. no idea, but I don’t think it’s worth more than $500 equivalent in Germany (gun market is small there however, due to small gun laws).

 

Always been a Bond fan and bought one maybe a decade ago for about $750 USD. Not as an investment but just cuz. So your figures are probably right. Heard a couple years later the model was discontinued.

 

Yup PPK is probably about $500-700 dollars. I used to have one in my collection. I don't think you can go wrong with guns and ammo as a collectible. If you buy quality and store them properly they almost always appreciate in value. I had about 10k rounds of discontinued ammo from wwi and wwii which enthusiasts love to get their hands on. Bought them wholesale awhile ago and since sold them off for about a 100% profit. I will say this.....guns and ammo will always be in demand (good times and bad times.) 

 

A good friend of mine is a really big sports memorabilia collector. He does a ton of business on eBay, and is quite the entrepreneur. Still remember him back in 8th grade buying and selling autographed collectibles from his blackberry. Ended up paying for his college and has gone on to do some good things! He actually hooked me up with two autographed footballs from Saquon Barkley on official NFL balls. Needless to say I've become a Giants (already a Penn State fan) fan.

 

[Gamecock-YT]

I unwittingly own a collection of top end bourbon that's probably appreciated in value 10-12x from when I bought it before the bourbon boom happened. Bought and drank a lot in the late 2000s, early 2010s. Quit drinking bourbon for awhile and in the mean time kept reading about how much the pappy's, BTAC, and other limited edition bourbons were going for utterly ridiculous prices to the point I can't bring myself to drink what I have. Not sure what the end game is, there are facebook black markets I guess I could sell on but not really in a hurry to sell.

[gfp]

Curious is anyone on here invests in other types of assets. Artwork, collectible automobiles, guns & ammo, wines, antiques, etc?

 

What are your views on the markets for said assets?

 

Why do or don't you invest in these types of assets?

 

Side: I couldn't find a post regarding the topic, but feel free to point it out if there is one.

 

I have owned art and antique / rare automobiles.  Had a good return on a 1956 Porsche that I purchased for $19,000 when I was 21 years old.  I've also commissioned replicas of paintings I love and will never be able to afford.  Those give me joy but no monetary return. 

 

I don't have a view on the collectible / vintage car market - but it does seem frothy.  When I was younger I worried that all the old timers who were pushing prices higher were going to die or outgrow the interest and the younger generation wouldn't support market prices.  That hasn't happened.  The baby boomers are still young enough to support the market and I've had friends in their late 30's join the hobby with more affordable options like the BMW 2002.

[SHDL]

I don’t do this personally because these things tend to have low risk/maintenance adjusted returns and/or can only be done with tiny amounts of money.  I think the low-ish returns have to do with the fact that certain people derive great satisfaction (“psychic income”) from owning a lot of these items, and that tends to be priced in like if it were a dividend.  My sense is therefore that these “investments” usually make sense only if you are someone who can really get a kick out of just owning them.

 

In the world of vintage electric guitars for example, everyone knows about the 1959 Les Paul Standard.  It sold for $400 or so when it came out and now the better ones trade for like 1000x that amount or more.  But of course over 60 years that is “only” a low teens price appreciation on a paltry $400, and we’re talking about the model that did by far the best in its category: you would have done nowhere nearly as well if you had bought another model or if you had physically damaged the guitar or if Jimmy Page and co had played something else.  But if you were a real guitar player who could really appreciate an excellent instrument, that is a different story, because you likely would have gotten so much out of the thing along the way that you may not even care about the price at which you could sell it for today...

[DTEJD1997]

Hey all:

 

I collect gold/silver coins.  I have some jewelers, "we buy gold", and other dealers that I buy from.  I try to get as close to melt value as I can, and if the coin(s) are especially interesting/rare, so much the better.  Obviously 99%+ are not exceptionally nice/rare, but I have gotten some really good deals.

 

I will also sell off what I don't want to hold onto to some friends/associates.  I make a VERY slight profit, but I boost my volume with dealers, so they like to deal with me.

 

I think it prudent that people own a little physical silver/gold.

[gfp]

I used to buy some physical gold and silver back in 2002-2003.  I usually bought from Burt Blumert at Camino (rip - great guy, very encouraging when I was a young man), but also bought from the father of one of my college friends.  This numismatist, the friend's dad, would sell me st gaudens double eagles.  He also had some type of arrangement with a bunch of the toll road authorities / turnpikes in the Northeast US where he purchased in bulk the mangled coins and other coins that jammed the machines or weren't property accepted for whatever reason.  No idea who he actually had going through the bags, but he said it was quite lucrative and he would get all kinds of weird, sometimes valuable, coins in those bulk drops.  I'm sure it was a gross business but he said it was consistently profitable.

 

I had someone steal 1000 ounces of silver bullion (one of those mint-sealed green boxes) from me.  At the time it was worth about $4500 but of course it was later worth $20k... 

 

I sold most of my physical metals at the urging of my wife quite a while ago.  Not the exact bull market top, but close enough.  She kept reminding me that when we were dating I would always tell her that the time to sell commodities was when the taxi driver and the advertisements at the airport were all talking about buying gold.  That happened and she was adamant that we sell it all.  Used it to buy apartment buildings and the productive assets have been a better investment.  I lost my interest in "investing" in commodities.  Was influenced by Jim Rogers early in my career.  Kept the motorcycle adventure habit and ditched the commodities.  Remember when Rogers was adamant that the farmers would be driving Lamborghinis in due course?  Yeah, that didn't go quite the way he planned...  Maybe he's still "early."

[ https://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=jim+rogers+farmers+lamborghini&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8 ]

 

Hey all:

 

I collect gold/silver coins.  I have some jewelers, "we buy gold", and other dealers that I buy from.  I try to get as close to melt value as I can, and if the coin(s) are especially interesting/rare, so much the better.  Obviously 99%+ are not exceptionally nice/rare, but I have gotten some really good deals.

 

I will also sell off what I don't want to hold onto to some friends/associates.  I make a VERY slight profit, but I boost my volume with dealers, so they like to deal with me.

 

I think it prudent that people own a little physical silver/gold.

[writser]

I'll risk disclosing being a huge nerd but Magic cards also have gone through the roof the past 10/20 years. No reprints of old cards and the game is still popular or even getting more popular and for some playing formats you actually need these cards to play. Something like the infamous Black Lotus is now worth ~1000% more than it was 10-20 years ago and the rarest, best-preserved editions sell for $50k+. Years ago I considered buying a set of these hallmark cards (aka the power 9, for the insiders) just for bragging rights but I didn't pull the trigger. That would have been one of my best 'investment' ever (at least in terms of IRR). I still think it would be kind of cool to own them but I'm too much of a cheapskate to spend $25k on a couple of cards (and a safe to put them in ..). I wouldn't do anything with them. Not to mention the risk of fraud and/or grading issues that come up when you start buying cards for these ridiculous prices. Also I have a hard time considering them an 'investment'. It wouldn't surprise me if prices keep on rising for a while though as players get older - as long as the game doesn't collapse.

 

The meteoric rise in prices of classic cars / collectibles / wines / antiques is fascinating. Does it say something about the value of our money? About rising inequality? Interesting questions.

[merkhet]

I'm also in shock at how much Magic: The Gathering cards have appreciated since my high school playing days. I had a ton of cards that I ended up selling well over a decade ago when I stopped being interested in the game. I'm not sure I would have believed you had you told me in my teen years that this game had legs.

[vpagano]

It's funny really. I learned to read at home via dad's old baseball cards and comics and collecting bit me early. The monthly memorization of the Beckett's price guide eventually morphed into a love of markets and then as I got older stocks. Now, as I've turned 30 with a little more money to spend I collect antique tobacco / gum (T206 ex.) cards and bourbon. Pappy and other rare ones have had a very strong 5-10 year run from an IRR standpoint.

[DooDiligence]

My Grandpa got me into coins when I was a kid.

 

I stuck mostly to Morgan Dollars & St. Gaudens $20's because I was familiar enough with them to be able to grade unslabbed coins & would occasionally (rarely) get an MS60 that was advertised as AU58.

 

Also bought US Gold & Silver Eagles in mint & proof until gold went above $500 & haven't bought anything since.

 

I sold most of what I had at $1500ish & kept some Proof Silver Eagles, Morgan CC's in the Nixon boxes & a few St. Gaudens & Liberty $5's which I'd gotten from my Grandpa & will never sell.

 

I also kept a nice racketeer nickel set that he gave me.

These & the Nixon CC's are more valuable to me than the market would ever give.

 

Many decades ago, I found a 1916D mercury dime in a bag of silver that he'd bought & we both freaked out.

 

I was very young & he let me keep it.

 

I found out much later that the coin is a counterfeit but the love it contains, was & still is very genuine.

 

I believe that getting kids into numismatics may very well be fundamental in teaching the value of money & frugality.

[Foreign Tuffett]

Following WEB, I would probably refer to most everything mentioned in this thread "speculations" or "collections" and not "investments." Unless you have an actual use case for it (buying narcotics on the internet, avoiding taxes, etc) I would throw Bitcoin into this bucket as well.

 

Practically speaking, I actually think there are lots of issues with speculating in collectibles. Storage, liquidity, transaction costs, regulations around the buying and selling of certain items like alcohol and firearms, possibility of getting ripped off, theft, etc.

 

I actually think the best way to consistently make money with these sort so things is to be a dealer/market maker. Locate deal flow, buy @ 0.5X and selling @ X, rinse and repeat. The internet has disintermediated many collectibles dealers, but viable business models are still possible.

 

For example, this guy is a dealer of collectible card game products. He buys boxes of cards wholesale and sells them to his lemming followers. He was clever enough to convert this process into a subscription based business model by leveraging Patreon.

 

https://www.patreon.com/AlphaInvestments

[Jurgis]

I am in the same camp as Foreign Tuffett. I tried collecting various stuff (stamps, playing cards, old books, coins, art) and I wasn't good at it plus my heart wasn't in it either. Plus you really have to go superdeep DD IMO so that you are not ripped of, defrauded, etc. Know the provenance, quality - or really trust external experts for that.

 

I think I'm too much functionality oriented to collect non-functional objects and not enough rare/top functionality connoisseur to collect Ferraris or Les Pauls.

 

I think I have destroyed quality of some coins while "cleaning" them when I was a kid. So I guess I contributed to rarity premium for other collectors.  8)

 

BTW, on topic we just went to Peabody Essex Museum. There's a show of collection of Peter Lynch and his wife: paintings/furniture/etc. For anyone interested.  8)

[LC]

I echo the speculation sentiment. And also the magic card game craze. I think I have a box somewhere I should probably have priced.

 

I'll touch on Artwork: I love buying art and occasionally it appreciates in price. I have no idea how to do it formulaically or even judgementally to constitute an 'investment' operation. But what I do is buy art that I love, within my general price range. But I only buy originals (no prints etc.), and sometimes you get "lucky" in that an artist gains popularity and the prices of their work skyrocket. Concretely, pieces I've paid 500 bucks for, could sell for 10 or 15x that amount (in fact my logo on this forum is one such artist). I'd probably never sell any of them (unless it becomes crazily valued), but otherwise it's a win-win. Best case scenario is you have original, high-priced artwork that you love, worst case scenario is you have original, low-priced artwork that you love.

[bizaro86]

Only downside I can think of:

 

My grandparents tons of art over the years. Some "hit" and most didn't as you would expect, and they have never sold any as far as I know. One piece was the outlier, and is worth low six figures now. It's on their wall, and every family get together I have to listen to all my cousins gush over how much they love it, presumably in hopes of inheriting the piece. I've suggested they sell it, as they could use the money, to no effect.

[Jurgis]

Only downside I can think of:

 

My grandparents tons of art over the years. Some "hit" and most didn't as you would expect, and they have never sold any as far as I know. One piece was the outlier, and is worth low six figures now. It's on their wall, and every family get together I have to listen to all my cousins gush over how much they love it, presumably in hopes of inheriting the piece. I've suggested they sell it, as they could use the money, to no effect.

 

Another downside:

 

My relatives had an original piece by pretty well known Lithuanian painter. Beginning of XX century, but Lithuanian, so probably five figures, not six figures. Maybe even below five figures. Anyway, they went abroad, other relatives lived in the apartment, some stuff got packed and moved by various parties... result: painting gone. Lot's of negative emotions, blame, etc.

 

Personally, I'm more sad that this painting hung in Soviet-style heated apartment for 50 years or so. Can only imagine the loss of quality due to overdamp/overdry conditions... Not that my house has much better climate control.  :'(

 

 

At some point I wanted to buy some Dali/Renoir/whoever "original" prints for my mom. But then I read about the scaminess of the print market and said, I'd better spend money on something else...  ::)

 

 

Another aside: couple years ago it was still possible to buy a well known (not the best, but close to best) early XX century Lithuanian painter good quality paintings in five figure range. I thought about buying, but did not. You'd still have to hire someone to check provenance. You likely won't get permission to export and I had no interest to keep it somewhere in a vault. It might not rerate higher either. A lot of Russian/Chinese art rerated up hugely as Russians/Chinese got rich. Might be too few (rich) Lithuanians for Lithuanian art to rerate hugely.  ::) There might be some pieces that I'd like just for enjoyment, but if I started looking to buy, I'd probably go DD on it and spend too much time researching the stuff.  :-\

[elliott]

I actually think the best way to consistently make money with these sort so things is to be a dealer/market maker. Locate deal flow, buy @ 0.5X and selling @ X, rinse and repeat. The internet has disintermediated many collectibles dealers, but viable business models are still possible.

 

Exactly! As an individual, your piece needs to appreciatete a lot if you want to just break even. No dealer will purchase a piece for the price you see them selling for. I was involved in the art business for a while, and you really have to buy with such discounts. Its not because of greediness. You need that margin to cover your costs - at least, in the type of art I worked with. Display space, appropiate conditions, insurance, your time showing that piece to customers and telling them about it... And while the internet has disintermediated many dealers, many also can still charge a premium simply because of a matter of confidence.

[SharperDingaan]

Most people think of collectables as just stamps, coin, art, jewelry, toys, cars, rugs, etc.

Held primary for the ‘enjoyment’ of looking at, or using them, while you’re praying for a rise in price!

All physical things .... with zero consideration of intellectual property.

 

In a former life, and time, I happily miss-spent some youth bootlegging a number of fine beverages that I’d made myself. Well appreciated beer and spirits, using home-built equipment, and ‘ancient’ family recipes that had been heavily modified as they travelled through various parts of Africa. Recipes as collectables, or IP.

 

Recipes that were resuscitated by family in the UK, brewed up by contract brewers, and product sold at various markets and ethnic events throughout the country. Profits helped put the nephews through universities of their choice, but sadly the cut and thrust of flogging beer did not encourage them to take up business as a career. Serving sorghum-based beer out of a barrel with a calabash, to beating African drumming; and packaging in 3l glass growlers, requires a bit of panache ;D. But it’s great fun.

 

Recipes/’how to’ knowledge by themselves aren’t worth anything, until you use them.

But the ROI on that IP? Infinity.

 

SD

 

[Guest cherzeca]

My Grandpa got me into coins when I was a kid.

 

I stuck mostly to Morgan Dollars & St. Gaudens $20's because I was familiar enough with them to be able to grade unslabbed coins & would occasionally (rarely) get an MS60 that was advertised as AU58.

 

Also bought US Gold & Silver Eagles in mint & proof until gold went above $500 & haven't bought anything since.

 

I sold most of what I had at $1500ish & kept some Proof Silver Eagles, Morgan CC's in the Nixon boxes & a few St. Gaudens & Liberty $5's which I'd gotten from my Grandpa & will never sell.

 

I also kept a nice racketeer nickel set that he gave me.

These & the Nixon CC's are more valuable to me than the market would ever give.

 

Many decades ago, I found a 1916D mercury dime in a bag of silver that he'd bought & we both freaked out.

 

I was very young & he let me keep it.

 

I found out much later that the coin is a counterfeit but the love it contains, was & still is very genuine.

 

I believe that getting kids into numismatics may very well be fundamental in teaching the value of money & frugality.

 

there is no love in stock picking but there can be love in collecting.  some of the best times I had with my pop was working on old land rovers.  tangible objects can be the repositories of meaning and love...and maybe even money but who cares if you get your meaning/love well filled?

[merkhet]

My Grandpa got me into coins when I was a kid.

 

I stuck mostly to Morgan Dollars & St. Gaudens $20's because I was familiar enough with them to be able to grade unslabbed coins & would occasionally (rarely) get an MS60 that was advertised as AU58.

 

Also bought US Gold & Silver Eagles in mint & proof until gold went above $500 & haven't bought anything since.

 

I sold most of what I had at $1500ish & kept some Proof Silver Eagles, Morgan CC's in the Nixon boxes & a few St. Gaudens & Liberty $5's which I'd gotten from my Grandpa & will never sell.

 

I also kept a nice racketeer nickel set that he gave me.

These & the Nixon CC's are more valuable to me than the market would ever give.

 

Many decades ago, I found a 1916D mercury dime in a bag of silver that he'd bought & we both freaked out.

 

I was very young & he let me keep it.

 

I found out much later that the coin is a counterfeit but the love it contains, was & still is very genuine.

 

I believe that getting kids into numismatics may very well be fundamental in teaching the value of money & frugality.

 

there is no love in stock picking but there can be love in collecting.  some of the best times I had with my pop was working on old land rovers.  tangible objects can be the repositories of meaning and love...and maybe even money but who cares if you get your meaning/love well filled?

 

+1

[Castanza]

My Grandpa got me into coins when I was a kid.

 

I stuck mostly to Morgan Dollars & St. Gaudens $20's because I was familiar enough with them to be able to grade unslabbed coins & would occasionally (rarely) get an MS60 that was advertised as AU58.

 

Also bought US Gold & Silver Eagles in mint & proof until gold went above $500 & haven't bought anything since.

 

I sold most of what I had at $1500ish & kept some Proof Silver Eagles, Morgan CC's in the Nixon boxes & a few St. Gaudens & Liberty $5's which I'd gotten from my Grandpa & will never sell.

 

I also kept a nice racketeer nickel set that he gave me.

These & the Nixon CC's are more valuable to me than the market would ever give.

 

Many decades ago, I found a 1916D mercury dime in a bag of silver that he'd bought & we both freaked out.

 

I was very young & he let me keep it.

 

I found out much later that the coin is a counterfeit but the love it contains, was & still is very genuine.

 

I believe that getting kids into numismatics may very well be fundamental in teaching the value of money & frugality.

 

there is no love in stock picking but there can be love in collecting.  some of the best times I had with my pop was working on old land rovers.  tangible objects can be the repositories of meaning and love...and maybe even money but who cares if you get your meaning/love well filled?

 

Been a long time dream of mine to own an old Land Rover or Toyota Land Cruiser. For now I have to settle for my Tacoma.