Graduate Degrees

[Castanza]

Long story short I have been fortunate to find myself in a situation where I am able to pursue an advanced degree at basically zero cost from a very reputable university. Besides the time and effort it will take on my part, it is basically a no-brainer to pursue. Most likely I will pursue and MBA.

 

For those of you who work in a tech related field (backend IT) how has an advanced degree helped you in your career. How has it not helped you? Certs are primarily the most beneficial in my field. Generally I view education as an HR checklist item that gets you in the door. Obviously job performance is more important than credentials but there certainly are benefits to advanced degrees. The question is also open to those in other fields of work. I'm not really one to handcuff myself to any one career path.

 

Thanks

 

[Gregmal]

Yea I would definitely concur...and advise, do not ever pay for an MBA yourself. If an employer deems it necessary they will pay for it. But fundamentally it’s a worthless degree trumpeted by financial people who like to swing around titles and designations in order to feel important and justify their worth. But it s really just a bunch of sound and fury, signifying nothing. So don’t get suckered into paying for it yourself.

[sleepydragon]

PHD or MBA are basically teaching nothing.

But in today’s world, there are so many applicants for the crowded top paying positions, hiring managers will simply not even look at your resume if you don’t have the said degree.

 

 

[Castanza]

@Greg, I'm certainly only pursuing it because I will have nothing other than time invested. I agree completely that credentials can be overrated.

 

@Sleepdragon, I think the algo screenings have been quite detrimental to new grads. In the IT field it's pretty common for individuals to lie on their resume by listing every certification (CCNA, CCNP, Sec+, Azure, etc.) simply to make it past the initial screening process. Thinking about it now, it's probably a combination of boiler plate job postings and algorithm screeners. That being said, I'm trying to view this is a "future hedge" in some manner.

 

Thanks

[SharperDingaan]

Most people who hold an MBA, also hold some other certification. MBA/PEng, MBA/CFA, MBA/CPA, MBA/... , etc.

For most an MBA is a form of 'future proofing', and it is used to broaden opportunities, beyond that of an existing narrow technical silo. 'Cause the reality is that as you rise up in your silo, there are fewer opportunities, and you are less and less competitive viz your asian counterpart. You will be pushed out, and for most high-cost ex-employees, 'doing the same thing elsewhere' - isn't really practical.

 

Comes the day; for many, the 'default' option is either 'go back to school' - to do an MBA, or go back 'home' and become an 'international manager' of some type. Viable when you're 25-35, not so much when you're 35-45 and the spouse/kids don't want to return 'home' - to a place they don't 'know' anymore. The cost is often loss of job AND loss of family.

 

To many, an MBA means 1-2 yrs of full-time school and 100K of tuition; similar to what you you might have done in undergrad school. The reality of course is that for a great many 'returning adults' it will be often be an 'on-line' program, that may/may not be interspersed with periodic paid job placements/internships. Often 2/3 cheaper, and with little/no 'opportunity cost'. Basic research will take you a long way. 

 

The MBA itself is an HR screen, no different to any other professional designation.

But you are now the manager approving IT budgets, and no longer the project manager trying to bring the project in on time, and on budget. And you don't get that job unless you have BOTH an MBA (business experience) and technical experience. We may think the MBA an idiot, but they write the cheques. Idiots can/will be replaced, just as you can.

 

Typically, attitude and stage-of-life, are key drivers of the decision.

Often the best tech people in the business are promoted because of it; but turn out to be the worst 'people' and 'business' managers that walked the planet. It's not intentional; they just weren't taught 'how to' manage, and took their their cues from the abusive 'successful' managers ahead of them. Most MBA programs will offer you the opportunity to learn the 'how to'.

 

Good luck.

 

SD

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Castanza]

Most people who hold an MBA, also hold some other certification. MBA/PEng, MBA/CFA, MBA/CPA, MBA/... , etc.

For most an MBA is a form of 'future proofing', and it is used to broaden opportunities, beyond that of an existing narrow technical silo. 'Cause the reality is that as you rise up in your silo, there are fewer opportunities, and you are less and less competitive viz your asian counterpart. You will be pushed out, and for most high-cost ex-employees, 'doing the same thing elsewhere' - isn't really practical.

 

Comes the day; for many, the 'default' option is either 'go back to school' - to do an MBA, or go back 'home' and become an 'international manager' of some type. Viable when you're 25-35, not so much when you're 35-45 and the spouse/kids don't want to return 'home' - to a place they don't 'know' anymore. The cost is often loss of job AND loss of family.

 

To many, an MBA means 1-2 yrs of full-time school and 100K of tuition; similar to what you you might have done in undergrad school. The reality of course is that for a great many 'returning adults' it will be often be an 'on-line' program, that may/may not be interspersed with periodic paid job placements/internships. Often 2/3 cheaper, and with little/no 'opportunity cost'. Basic research will take you a long way. 

 

The MBA itself is an HR screen, no different to any other professional designation.

But you are now the manager approving IT budgets, and no longer the project manager trying to bring the project in on time, and on budget. And you don't get that job unless you have BOTH an MBA (business experience) and technical experience. We may think the MBA an idiot, but they write the cheques. Idiots can/will be replaced, just as you can.

 

Typically, attitude and stage-of-life, are key drivers of the decision.

Often the best tech people in the business are promoted because of it; but turn out to be the worst 'people' and 'business' managers that walked the planet. It's not intentional; they just weren't taught 'how to' manage, and took their their cues from the abusive 'successful' managers ahead of them. Most MBA programs will offer you the opportunity to learn the 'how to'.

 

Good luck.

 

SD

 

Have to say that is a spot on analysis. Thanks

[lnofeisone]

PHD or MBA are basically teaching nothing.

But in today’s world, there are so many applicants for the crowded top paying positions, hiring managers will simply not even look at your resume if you don’t have the said degree.

 

I don't have an MBA but I would disagree that a PhD teaches nothing. There are fields (IT included - look up anything graph/ontology and try to parse it without an advanced degree) where specialization is a must and someone with BS/MS will not cut it. I'd guess 80% of back-end IT is just fine without a PhD.

 

The line of work I'm in sees junior staff depart for MBAs every few years. The most successful MBAers tend to be those who 1) use it to pivot into in industry they are not in 2) use it to expand their network (think Stanford/MIT with their access to start-up land) 3) use it as a stepping stone to more prestigious firm (typically MBB or top IBs). They also go to top 25 schools and get corporate sponsorship.

 

MBA programs have to cater to wide spectrum of individuals so most of the classes are very introductory in nature (i.e., very few will know sudo rm -rf /* coming in or after completing their MBA) but you will get a lot of breadth in terms of cases studied and playbooks that worked or didn't work. You can also get that just be reading us cases from HBR or any other top 25 B-school.

 

Using MBAs for advancing is no longer a given. I see a lot of technical non-MBAers join exec ranks simply because they bring fresh realistic (albeit often incremental) ideas, know how to scope a project for technical needs (tech and people), and arrive to a better approximation of a price. Absent strong network and industry connections, newly minted MBAs bring little (

) differentiation from those who chose to stay behind and work 2 years.

 

I tend to agree with SD that tech people get promoted because they are good at tech and not management skills. However, the wider trend recently has been to start splitting up career tracks separating those who are amazingly good at tech and don't want to manage vs. those who are reasonably good at tech and want to manage. I don't know if taking an intro to accounting or finance will teach you to be a good manager. Actively managing and wanting to improve one's management style will teach you to be a good manager.

 

 

[james22]

Necessary, but not sufficient.

[Jurgis]

I don't have an MBA but I would disagree that a PhD teaches nothing. There are fields (IT included - look up anything graph/ontology and try to parse it without an advanced degree) where specialization is a must and someone with BS/MS will not cut it. I'd guess 80% of back-end IT is just fine without a PhD.

 

QFT.

 

very few will know sudo rm -rf /*

 

LOL.  8)

 

I tend to agree with SD that tech people get promoted because they are good at tech and not management skills. However, the wider trend recently has been to start splitting up career tracks separating those who are amazingly good at tech and don't want to manage vs. those who are reasonably good at tech and want to manage. I don't know if taking an intro to accounting or finance will teach you to be a good manager. Actively managing and wanting to improve one's management style will teach you to be a good manager.

 

I partially agree with this. Being good at tech likely needed, but not sufficient to be promoted as a manager. (Maybe that's what james22 meant). There's a wide swath of tech people who either don't want to manage or even if they do, they are not good at it. The ones who don't want to manage usually are not made managers although there are exceptions (mostly in rapidly growing companies). Those who want and are not good at it get to be managers quite often and then people under them suffer. Sometimes for long time and multiple iterations of promotions, sometimes for short while.

 

Then there are people who are good or very good at managing and at managing their career/promotions. Those go fastest. Although being good at managing the career/promotions is likely most important assuming you're good in tech and don't completely suck in managing.

 

Mostly this is independent of MBA as far as I know. We had a company-paid MBAs in one of my tech company jobs. The people who did it were not good in management or career management and did not really go up very far AFAIK.

[SharperDingaan]

"Mostly this is independent of MBA as far as I know. We had a company-paid MBAs in one of my tech company jobs. The people who did it were not good in management or career management and did not really go up very far AFAIK."

 

As with everything, there are good/bad MBA's. A good tool, in the hands of a sh1te workman, still produces sh1te work.

 

However; ever since the atomic bomb was invented, it has become very evident that we are also all responsible for the consequences of what we do. You can't make bombs, and claim the radiation is someone else's responsibility. You can't just pollute as a by-product, and claim that you're not part of the problem.

 

IT can't just implement blockchain, smart-contracts, allgos and AI, etc. - and delegate the Corporate Social Responsibility for it to others. Like it or not, IT is not its own island; no matter how much it might prefer to be so.

 

SD

 

[TheAiGuy]

Yea I would definitely concur...and advise, do not ever pay for an MBA yourself. If an employer deems it necessary they will pay for it. But fundamentally it’s a worthless degree trumpeted by financial people who like to swing around titles and designations in order to feel important and justify their worth. But it s really just a bunch of sound and fury, signifying nothing. So don’t get suckered into paying for it yourself.

 

This is abysmal advice.  My wife got an MBA from Tuck and it literally changed her career. She went from earning ~$75K in a back-office roll at a reputable mutual fund shop to earning ~$300k in IB.  She also made a ton of life-long friends and had the time of her life.

 

Yes, a lot of MBA’s are not worth the money (anything not top-tier), and sure, the value of MBAs to a firm is certainly over-rated.  But this is the dumbest piece of advice that people keep parroting Buffet on.

 

(Sorry to pick on you about this, nothing personal).

[TheAiGuy]

PHD or MBA are basically teaching nothing.

But in today’s world, there are so many applicants for the crowded top paying positions, hiring managers will simply not even look at your resume if you don’t have the said degree.

 

The notion that a PhD teaches nothing is laughable.  There are many, many things that you can only learn in a PhD (Machine learning, for example).  Lot’s of people will sell you on the idea that you can learn these things without a PhD (again, Machine Learning), but that’s a nonsense.  Some things take years of study and practice in an environment with constant feedback from skilled practitioners, and that’s a PhD program.

 

I tend to agree that you don’t learn much useful in an MBA program, but the course content isn’t really the point of them.

[Gregmal]

Yea I would definitely concur...and advise, do not ever pay for an MBA yourself. If an employer deems it necessary they will pay for it. But fundamentally it’s a worthless degree trumpeted by financial people who like to swing around titles and designations in order to feel important and justify their worth. But it s really just a bunch of sound and fury, signifying nothing. So don’t get suckered into paying for it yourself.

 

This is abysmal advice.  My wife got an MBA from Tuck and it literally changed her career. She went from earning ~$75K in a back-office roll at a reputable mutual fund shop to earning ~$300k in IB.  She also made a ton of life-long friends and had the time of her life.

 

Yes, a lot of MBA’s are not worth the money (anything not top-tier), and sure, the value of MBAs to a firm is certainly over-rated.  But this is the dumbest piece of advice that people keep parroting Buffet on.

 

(Sorry to pick on you about this, nothing personal).

 

This is in the finance world. With that respect, you're probably right, which is why you always see financial people pushing MBAs or bragging about them. But like an MBA, financial industry people rarely have any value by themselves. Most dont create anything. Their bogusly expensive suites, flashy watches, nice cars and corner offices... all reliant on YOUR money. Much like MBA programs do. They tell stories and promote their importance to separate people and businesses from their money.  An MBA or CFA, in a world of selling shiny objects is just another shiny object to sell people. Just like the suit and the corner office. Its why there's so many examples of finance people who earn 6 figure livings, losing their jobs and then not being able to find a job paying a fraction of what they previously made, esle where.

 

Outside the financial industry, the designations, as others have stated here, are largely cover your ass mechanisms for the person whom is hiring. A friend is fairly high level at Lockheed Martin. She's currently enrolled in their MBA programs. She told me that once you hit a certain level there, they required you to have one. But they pay for it, and use a for profit school to secure it for you. Solely a check the box thing.

 

The way to go if you are going for it, is how Castanza is doing it. I remember a few years ago, when interviewing a potential hire, some spritely kid, maybe a few years younger than I, whom went straight from undergrad to an MBA program. Of course mom and dad paid for it. The kid was fairly bright, but thought this "degree" made him more important than peers. And I remember thinking, you're 26 with no real experience and an arrogant sense of security that will almost certainly lead you into making mistakes. Whereas, you could have just jumped straight into the work force at 22 and by this time had an even greater(not to mention more valuable) catalogue of industry related experience, PLUS a ton of money in your pocket AND some valuable relationships/connections... but yea bro, you're hot shit cuz you bought an MBA from Booth...I hired someone else needless to say.

 

 

[SharperDingaan]

To a company, the 'value' of the MBA largely depends upon the name of the school, the individuals background, attitude/maturity, and work experience. And it is applied very differently, in different industries, and types of businesses.

 

In the more technical silos, relevant work experience and attitude/maturity count for a lot more. Typically engineering, IT, project management, etc. - and the smaller the firm, the more pronounced it is. Of course, it's nice if you come from MIT; but what really matters is how much experience have you got building XYZ, and can you work well with others.

 

In the less technical silos, school and background count for a lot more; 'technicians' are hired to do the technical. Typically IB, accounting, law, etc - and the bigger the firm the more pronounced it is. The 'school' is a screen for wealth, and you're looking for the sons/daughters of the 'connected' - we do you a favour, now you do one for us. The hire could be a budding sociopath, but if it is Trumps kid - have we got a job for you! Smart business, but a different approach.

 

Ultimately, time is a great leveller, and the cream will rise no matter where it is. 5-10 yrs after the MBA has been conferred, it really doesn't matter anymore where it came from; as experience will typically trump privilege. The privilege didn't go away, it just became less valuable as it aged.

 

Obviously, dependant upon your 'game', the MBA will have more/less 'value' to you. 

But you have to recognize that you are 'gaming'.

 

SD

 

 

[LC]

If you are coming from a specialized field then an MBA is useful is you are trying to change careers like TheAiGuy says. This was my story essentially and it paid off for me a boatload times over.

 

PHDs are incredibly useful as well to learn specific knowledge. Almost all of our quants are PHD or MS with heavy experience. 

 

It all depends where you are in your life and career, and what you are trying to accomplish.

 

 

very few will know sudo rm -rf /*

I just typed this and now WAIT WH-------- :D

 

 

[boilermaker75]

PHD or MBA are basically teaching nothing.

But in today’s world, there are so many applicants for the crowded top paying positions, hiring managers will simply not even look at your resume if you don’t have the said degree.

 

The notion that a PhD teaches nothing is laughable.  There are many, many things that you can only learn in a PhD (Machine learning, for example).  Lot’s of people will sell you on the idea that you can learn these things without a PhD (again, Machine Learning), but that’s a nonsense.  Some things take years of study and practice in an environment with constant feedback from skilled practitioners, and that’s a PhD program.

 

I tend to agree that you don’t learn much useful in an MBA program, but the course content isn’t really the point of them.

 

A Ph.D. is very different from an MBA. It is also very dependent on your advisor, think mentor. With the right advisor you'll come out with something you probably could not get in any other way. As a Ph.D. student you are the product of your advisor. He/she is very invested in you  and it may be a couple of years before your advisor is getting any return on your training. This is unlikely to happen in any corporate environment.

[Spekulatius]

PHD or MBA are basically teaching nothing.

But in today’s world, there are so many applicants for the crowded top paying positions, hiring managers will simply not even look at your resume if you don’t have the said degree.

 

The notion that a PhD teaches nothing is laughable.  There are many, many things that you can only learn in a PhD (Machine learning, for example).  Lot’s of people will sell you on the idea that you can learn these things without a PhD (again, Machine Learning), but that’s a nonsense.  Some things take years of study and practice in an environment with constant feedback from skilled practitioners, and that’s a PhD program.

 

I tend to agree that you don’t learn much useful in an MBA program, but the course content isn’t really the point of them.

 

I have a PhD and the only thing a PhD teaches you is how to teach yourself. That’s actually what my Doctor father (that’s what it’s called in Germany) told me and it had been true. It was worth it for me, but only because I didn’t have to pay for it - in fact I was being paid during the time  was was  working on my PhD ( albeit little). Unless you get into academia, it’s probably not a good payoff.

[Kaegi2011]

Some of the advice here seem extreme.  The value of it will be a function of 1) the school's reputation, 2) what new doors/career paths it opens, 3) network, 4) what new skills you pick up.  People seem to dismiss the skills side, and that may be fair enough - much of what you will learn can be learned through other (free) means.  However, as someone mentioned above, it's a stamp of approval if you have an MBA from a top school, no different than having worked at GS or McKinsey or Google (insert firm that's really hard to get in to in whatever your field).  So if that differentiates you from a hundred of other applicants in getting an interview, then I'd say it's worth it.  Also, the network should not be underestimated.  If you're able to go to HBS or GSB, for example, you might be classmates with the founder of the next Stitch Fix or DoorDash.  Regardless of how you feel about those companies' business models, to be able to email the founder and ask for a meeting/opportunity isn't something that is available to a random inbound contact.  At the end of the day it's what you make of it.

 

For non-top 20 schools I'd agree it's not worth it. 

 

Disclosure - I have an MBA. 

[boilermaker75]

Some of the advice here seem extreme.  The value of it will be a function of 1) the school's reputation, 2) what new doors/career paths it opens, 3) network, 4) what new skills you pick up.  People seem to dismiss the skills side, and that may be fair enough - much of what you will learn can be learned through other (free) means.  However, as someone mentioned above, it's a stamp of approval if you have an MBA from a top school, no different than having worked at GS or McKinsey or Google (insert firm that's really hard to get in to in whatever your field).  So if that differentiates you from a hundred of other applicants in getting an interview, then I'd say it's worth it.  Also, the network should not be underestimated.  If you're able to go to HBS or GSB, for example, you might be classmates with the founder of the next Stitch Fix or DoorDash.  Regardless of how you feel about those companies' business models, to be able to email the founder and ask for a meeting/opportunity isn't something that is available to a random inbound contact.  At the end of the day it's what you make of it.

 

For non-top 20 schools I'd agree it's not worth it. 

 

Disclosure - I have an MBA.

 

That is exactly how I got my first job as an electrical engineer. I called someone who graduated a year early who had gone to work for INTC to ask about a job, which is where I ended up.

 

I tell prospective students all the time that wherever they go to interview after graduating from Purdue they are going to run into a Purdue graduate and that can't hurt.

[DooDiligence]

I just found out that you can't be a college music professor unless you have a masters degree,

and without a PhD, you'll probably only find a position at a community college (which I'd be OK with).

 

The pay isn't great but the work would be fun (to me at least),

& you get Summers off to go out & gig with a reggae band.

 

Basically, one example of a graduate degree being a good thing.

[Castanza]

Thanks for all the perspectives you guys took the time to share. It's definitely given me some good aspects to think through.