Coronavirus

[Cigarbutt]

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/influential-hydroxychloroquine-study-used-suspect-data-from-company-run-by-pornographic-model-and-sci-fi-author

 

A study showing that the anti-malaria drug touted by President Trump, hydroxychloroquine, harmed COVID-19 patients is likely based on fabricated data.

 

An investigation by the Guardian found that the study, published in the Lancet (a prestigious medical journal), relied on data from a company called Surgisphere that appears to be highly suspect. The Lancet released an "expression of concern" about the study during the investigation.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jun/03/covid-19-surgisphere-who-world-health-organization-hydroxychloroquine

Governments and WHO changed Covid-19 policy based on suspect data from tiny US company

 

Surgisphere, whose employees appear to include a sci-fi writer and adult content model, provided database behind Lancet and New England Journal of Medicine hydroxychloroquine studies

 

.........................................

 

While proper studies by NYU Grossman using HCQ, Zinc and Azithromycin showing 44% less deaths in certain Covid patient population and Indian ICMR studies of prophylactic use of HCQ have been ignored.

You seem to have high conviction about hydroxychloroquine.

Just released, is a multi-center trial that appears to be very solid evidence in relation to the role as prevention post-exposure. Conclusion: it seems hydroxychloroquine, in that context, is neutral: no significant side effects and no benefit.

https://www.nejm.org/doi/pdf/10.1056/NEJMoa2016638?articleTools=true

The main investigator is based in Minneapolis. Not everything that comes out of that place is questionable.

[Spekulatius]

It's worse (or perhaps simply more ironic) than that.  If you take these feckless politicians at their word, they are (a) encouraging the protests, which according to their own logic will result in additional deaths from Covid but (b) decrying the rioting which has resulted in massive property damage primarily. Think about it.  What they are saying is that the cause (social justice, ending racism, etc.) trumps lives but not property!!  These morons couldn't logic their way out of a paper bag.  They are human mobius strips.

 

Who exactly encourages the protests and the property damage (which was done by looters not protesters)? The protests are unfortunate, but they were not organized by any party and they are not Trump’s fault either.

 

He just poured gasoline on them by sending the national guard and the tweeting stuff like “after looting comes the shooting”, which surely didn’t help.

[Liberty]

General Mattis: https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2020/06/james-mattis-denounces-trump-protests-militarization/612640/

[Viking]

General Mattis: https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2020/06/james-mattis-denounces-trump-protests-militarization/612640/

 

Holy shit! Everyone in the US needs to read and reflect deeply on what Mattis wrote. Mattis is a Republican, a professional soldier, a patriot and has intimate knowledge of who Donald Trump really is as a person and how he thinks and acts as President. This message is not from a partisan Democrat hack. Mattis’ is very clear in his assessment of the situation and the President. Donald Trump is clearly not fit for office (and it is not even close). How anyone with a working brain can continue to support this man completely boggles my mind. No, the alternative is NOT worse. That is a false choice. Read the underlined section below if you still do not understand why he must be defeated at the polls in November.

 

“...Donald Trump is the first president in my lifetime who does not try to unite the American people—does not even pretend to try. Instead he tries to divide us. We are witnessing the consequences of three years of this deliberate effort. We are witnessing the consequences of three years without mature leadership. We can unite without him, drawing on the strengths inherent in our civil society. This will not be easy, as the past few days have shown, but we owe it to our fellow citizens; to past generations that bled to defend our promise; and to our children.“

 

 

[Pauly]

General Mattis: https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2020/06/james-mattis-denounces-trump-protests-militarization/612640/

 

Mattis is a Reagan Republican's wet dream, a man of unimpeachable credentials. It'll be funny to see Trump and his boot-lickers degrade themselves further by trying to tear that man down.

[Spekulatius]

General Mattis: https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2020/06/james-mattis-denounces-trump-protests-militarization/612640/

 

Holy shit! Everyone in the US needs to read and reflect deeply on what Mattis wrote. Mattis is a Republican, a professional soldier, a patriot and has intimate knowledge of who Donald Trump really is as a person and how he thinks and acts as President. This message is not from a partisan Democrat hack. Mattis’ is very clear in his assessment of the situation and the President. Donald Trump is clearly not fit for office (and it is not even close). How anyone with a working brain can continue to support this man completely boggles my mind. No, the alternative is NOT worse. That is a false choice. Read the underlined section below if you still do not understand why he must be defeated at the polls in November.

 

“...Donald Trump is the first president in my lifetime who does not try to unite the American people—does not even pretend to try. Instead he tries to divide us. We are witnessing the consequences of three years of this deliberate effort. We are witnessing the consequences of three years without mature leadership. We can unite without him, drawing on the strengths inherent in our civil society. This will not be easy, as the past few days have shown, but we owe it to our fellow citizens; to past generations that bled to defend our promise; and to our children.“

 

Being divisive, creating chaos and then trying to benefit from it is Trump’s playbook. It’s pretty much how he works, he is a one trick pony in that respect. It has worked for him for a long time, but at some point, it will stop working. It better be sooner than later.

 

 

 

[Investor20]

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/influential-hydroxychloroquine-study-used-suspect-data-from-company-run-by-pornographic-model-and-sci-fi-author

 

A study showing that the anti-malaria drug touted by President Trump, hydroxychloroquine, harmed COVID-19 patients is likely based on fabricated data.

 

An investigation by the Guardian found that the study, published in the Lancet (a prestigious medical journal), relied on data from a company called Surgisphere that appears to be highly suspect. The Lancet released an "expression of concern" about the study during the investigation.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jun/03/covid-19-surgisphere-who-world-health-organization-hydroxychloroquine

Governments and WHO changed Covid-19 policy based on suspect data from tiny US company

 

Surgisphere, whose employees appear to include a sci-fi writer and adult content model, provided database behind Lancet and New England Journal of Medicine hydroxychloroquine studies

 

.........................................

 

While proper studies by NYU Grossman using HCQ, Zinc and Azithromycin showing 44% less deaths in certain Covid patient population and Indian ICMR studies of prophylactic use of HCQ have been ignored.

You seem to have high conviction about hydroxychloroquine.

Just released, is a multi-center trial that appears to be very solid evidence in relation to the role as prevention post-exposure. Conclusion: it seems hydroxychloroquine, in that context, is neutral: no significant side effects and no benefit.

https://www.nejm.org/doi/pdf/10.1056/NEJMoa2016638?articleTools=true

The main investigator is based in Minneapolis. Not everything that comes out of that place is questionable.

 

My main complaint is studies are not properly designed and yes I do think it works but cannot be sure till proper studies are done.

 

What I mean proper studies?  Studies that are designed based on prior studies on what is working.

 

For example this study gave HCQ for five days

 

"Within 4 days after exposure, we randomly assigned participants to receive either placebo or hydroxychloroquine (800 mg once, followed by 600 mg in 6 to 8 hours, then 600 mg daily for 4 additional days)."

 

They had Covid 19 in 49 with HCQ and 58 with placebo (Table 2) but no statistical difference.  So, it might be working but did not have enough power to have statistical difference.

 

However earlier studies used lesser HCQ dose per day for longer periods.  Why not replicate that dose regimen already shown that it might working? 

 

Korean Study:

 

Korean study used "HCQ was administrated orally at a dose of 400mg daily until the completion of 14 days of quarantine."  If you check FDA label for HCQ for Lupus, the approved dose is upto 400 mg for long term use.  So one would expect low side effects at this dose. 

 

And even though for Korean study there is no placebo arm, "At the end of 14 days of quarantine, follow-up PCR tests were all negative."  when tested on "After a large COVID-19 exposure event in a LTCH in Korea, PEP using hydroxychloroquine (HCQ) was conducted to 211 persons including 189 patients and 22 careworkers"

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7162746/

 

ICMR study in India:

 

"simply initiating HCQ prophylaxis did not reduce the odds of acquiring Covid-19 infection among HCWs. However, with the intake of four or more maintenance doses of HCQ, the protective effect started emerging. A significant reduction of about 80 per cent in the odds of Covid-19 infection in the HCWs was identified with the intake of six or more doses of HCQ prophylaxis. This dose-response relationship added strength to the study outcomes."

 

The National Task Force for coronavirus in India recommended once a week maintenance dose for seven weeks i.e., 400 mg once every week, following the loading dose of 400 mg.

https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/4-hydroxychloroquine-hcq-doses-coronavirus-healthcare-workers-icmr-1684112-2020-06-01

........

 

So, when prior studies have shown longer term use of lower dose HCQ might be providing protection and these lower doses would be expected to give less side effects (400 mg per day is approved for long term Lupus and 400 mg per week is given as prophylaxis for malaria when people go to high malaria incident areas), why design a study with high dose HCQ for short period which would be expected to give more side effects and does not have literature suggestion of working?

 

I am not even bringing in effect of Zinc.  NYU grossman study and atleast two doctors (Dr. Zelenko in NY & Dr. Cardillo in LA) say HCQ works better with Zinc.

Note: Not medical advise and these are prescription medications to be taken upon consulting a doctor. Only for discussion.

[vinod1]

General Mattis: https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2020/06/james-mattis-denounces-trump-protests-militarization/612640/

 

Holy shit! Everyone in the US needs to read and reflect deeply on what Mattis wrote. Mattis is a Republican, a professional soldier, a patriot and has intimate knowledge of who Donald Trump really is as a person and how he thinks and acts as President. This message is not from a partisan Democrat hack. Mattis’ is very clear in his assessment of the situation and the President. Donald Trump is clearly not fit for office (and it is not even close). How anyone with a working brain can continue to support this man completely boggles my mind. No, the alternative is NOT worse. That is a false choice. Read the underlined section below if you still do not understand why he must be defeated at the polls in November.

 

“...Donald Trump is the first president in my lifetime who does not try to unite the American people—does not even pretend to try. Instead he tries to divide us. We are witnessing the consequences of three years of this deliberate effort. We are witnessing the consequences of three years without mature leadership. We can unite without him, drawing on the strengths inherent in our civil society. This will not be easy, as the past few days have shown, but we owe it to our fellow citizens; to past generations that bled to defend our promise; and to our children.“

 

Dont expect his supporters to change though.

 

They were brain washed to believe that the lockdown is a liberal effort to bring down the president by hurting the economy. By the same standards, Trump supporters must be cheering the violent way in which Floyd was killed and the ensuring riots. Since this is likely to increase support for the Trump just as it did for Nixon in 1968.

 

Trump would be hands down winner for Osama Bin Laden's lifetime achievement award for causing the greatest damage to US by anyone in living memory.

 

Vinod

[Mephistopheles]

General Mattis: https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2020/06/james-mattis-denounces-trump-protests-militarization/612640/

 

Holy shit! Everyone in the US needs to read and reflect deeply on what Mattis wrote. Mattis is a Republican, a professional soldier, a patriot and has intimate knowledge of who Donald Trump really is as a person and how he thinks and acts as President. This message is not from a partisan Democrat hack. Mattis’ is very clear in his assessment of the situation and the President. Donald Trump is clearly not fit for office (and it is not even close). How anyone with a working brain can continue to support this man completely boggles my mind. No, the alternative is NOT worse. That is a false choice. Read the underlined section below if you still do not understand why he must be defeated at the polls in November.

 

“...Donald Trump is the first president in my lifetime who does not try to unite the American people—does not even pretend to try. Instead he tries to divide us. We are witnessing the consequences of three years of this deliberate effort. We are witnessing the consequences of three years without mature leadership. We can unite without him, drawing on the strengths inherent in our civil society. This will not be easy, as the past few days have shown, but we owe it to our fellow citizens; to past generations that bled to defend our promise; and to our children.“

 

What you say about Trump may be true, but don't forget that Obama wore a tan suit once....

 

 

No amount of convincing or evidence is going to get these people to change their minds. It's a cult and most of them are brainwashed beyond the point of no return. Trump can shoot their family members or friends on fifth avenue or grab their wives by the pussy and some of them still won't change their mind. It's astonishing, even on an investment board where people should focus on facts and not blind dogma.

[Read the Footnotes]

Dont expect his supporters to change though.

 

They were brain washed to believe that the lockdown is a liberal effort to bring down the president by hurting the economy. By the same standards, Trump supporters must be cheering the violent way in which Floyd was killed and the ensuring riots. Since this is likely to increase support for the Trump just as it did for Nixon in 1968.

 

Trump would be hands down winner for Osama Bin Laden's lifetime achievement award for causing the greatest damage to US by anyone in living memory.

 

Vinod

Nixon was the outsider promising change. Trump is more akin to Johnson. Like Johnson, Trump owns these problems no matter how much he may try to blame them on others.

[orthopa]

After nearly 600 pages of handwashing, mask wearing, social distancing pictures, graphs, contact tracers, studies, data, etc Im absolutely floored there isnt more outrage about the mass protests in this thread.

 

This thread is full of people who have pointed out at length the presidents faults in dealing with the virus. These protests and mass gatherings are organized by groups in opposition to the man who said the virus was a joke.

 

Where is the outrage! Liberty has contributed hundreds of twitters links about the virus, mask wearing, hand washing, social distancing rules etc. He must be beside himself.

[orthopa]

It is rather ironic that if you intend to break the law, its a great time to wear a mask.

 

Over the next couple of weeks should we expect to see a spike in Covid due to the mass protests?

Or will the warmer weather offset the effects of the large gatherings.

 

Predictions?

 

Based on your criticism of the President and how he handled the virus you must be losing your mind watching all of these mass protests. Remember when he wouldnt send masks to Canada? Seeing these mass protests with thousands huddled together must be driving you nuts!

[clutch]

After nearly 600 pages of handwashing, mask wearing, social distancing pictures, graphs, contact tracers, studies, data, etc Im absolutely floored there isnt more outrage about the mass protests in this thread.

 

This thread is full of people who have pointed out at length the presidents faults in dealing with the virus. These protests and mass gatherings are organized by groups in opposition to the man who said the virus was a joke.

 

Where is the outrage! Liberty has contributed hundreds of twitters links about the virus, mask wearing, hand washing, social distancing rules etc. He must be beside himself.

 

None of that trumps (no pun intended) ending racism!!

[clutch]

Hindsight is 20/20, but here is how a Canadian city has prevented outbreaks/deaths at long term care homes.

 

With an early focus on seniors’ residences, Kingston has so far avoided the brunt of COVID-19

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/article-with-an-early-focus-on-seniors-residences-kingston-has-so-far/

 

'In the early days of the pandemic, health experts say, government leaders across Canada worried about averting a catastrophe in this country’s hospitals, similar to what had happened in Italy and New York. They focused most of their attention on expanding the number of available hospital beds in anticipation of an influx of patients with COVID-19.

 

Kingston stands out because its pandemic planning addressed the frail elderly as well as hospitals by including measures to protect the health of residents in the broader community from the highly contagious virus, including the 2,600 residents in seniors’ homes.

 

...

 

"I don’t want to criticize decision makers in health care, but the tendency is to focus everything on acute care and the community is a bit of a second thought,“ Ms. Szabo said.'

[Castanza]

It's worse (or perhaps simply more ironic) than that.  If you take these feckless politicians at their word, they are (a) encouraging the protests, which according to their own logic will result in additional deaths from Covid but (b) decrying the rioting which has resulted in massive property damage primarily. Think about it.  What they are saying is that the cause (social justice, ending racism, etc.) trumps lives but not property!!  These morons couldn't logic their way out of a paper bag.  They are human mobius strips.

 

Who exactly encourages the protests and the property damage (which was done by looters not protesters)? The protests are unfortunate, but they were not organized by any party and they are not Trump’s fault either.

 

He just poured gasoline on them by sending the national guard and the tweeting stuff like “after looting comes the shooting”, which surely didn’t help.

 

Indeed,

 

Trump is not the leader America needs in tough times. Below is the Robert F. Kennedy speech which is worth a listen in times like this.

 

[Read the Footnotes]

After nearly 600 pages of handwashing, mask wearing, social distancing pictures, graphs, contact tracers, studies, data, etc Im absolutely floored there isnt more outrage about the mass protests in this thread.

 

This thread is full of people who have pointed out at length the presidents faults in dealing with the virus. These protests and mass gatherings are organized by groups in opposition to the man who said the virus was a joke.

 

Where is the outrage! Liberty has contributed hundreds of twitters links about the virus, mask wearing, hand washing, social distancing rules etc. He must be beside himself.

I am sadly disappointed. If Coronavirus is as bad as we think it may be, the protesting and even more likely the rioting and looting may lead to many deaths, short-term illness, long-term health effects, and harm to the economy. I am also very disappointed to see so many police officers not taking adequate precautions. I also believe that the images on TV and elsewhere of people not taking social distancing, face coverings or the virus seriously seem to be causing a more relaxed attitude in the past week or so from what I have seen personally. Most of the images in the media these days whether of the President or of protestors, looters and rioters are of people who are not modeling good behavior for the public.

 

Also, there is some chance that the accusations of murder are a rush to judgment. If we see enormous health, social and economic costs and the officers are not as guilty as people presume them to be, then it would truly be a national tragedy in my opinion.

 

I have seen reports that George Floyd had Fentanyl, Methamphetamines, alcohol, and Coronavirus in his system. Doctors have been flummoxed by the Coronavirus, so how can we expect cops to know how to deal with it appropriately? How many of them are aware that a suspect with COVID-19 might show psychotic behavior or might seem fine but have a dangerously low oxygen levels?

 

I think we have all learned on this board that some medical professionals have been completely clueless and we have learned their shortcomings. I am sure that in the first three months that patients did not receive good care the way they might three months from now. Why would we expect the situation to be any better with policing?

[Cigarbutt]

After nearly 600 pages of handwashing, mask wearing, social distancing pictures, graphs, contact tracers, studies, data, etc Im absolutely floored there isnt more outrage about the mass protests in this thread.

This thread is full of people who have pointed out at length the presidents faults in dealing with the virus. These protests and mass gatherings are organized by groups in opposition to the man who said the virus was a joke.

Where is the outrage! Liberty has contributed hundreds of twitters links about the virus, mask wearing, hand washing, social distancing rules etc. He must be beside himself.

i have a question (not so medical) for you:

Given the next hypothetical case, out of the possibilities, which would you put on the first line of the death certificate?

Listed randomly:

-fentanyl intoxication and recent methamphetamine use

-partially blocked coronary arteries

-COVID+

-partial obliteration of trachea due to an extrinsic knee cap

 

Personally, i would put decaying culture as the main cause of death and perhaps that would trigger a call from a health authority but it would also go a long way in explaining the current state of affairs.

[KCLarkin]

After nearly 600 pages of handwashing, mask wearing, social distancing pictures, graphs, contact tracers, studies, data, etc Im absolutely floored there isnt more outrage about the mass protests in this thread.

 

The protesters seem to be wearing masks and using hand sanitizer, so not sure what your point is. Are you suggesting we continue to tolerate violent, systematic racism? Or are you just advocating for us to "let 'er rip"?

 

Let 'er rip has failed in every country that has tried it: Sweden, UK, Brazil, US (unintentionally).

[Read the Footnotes]

After nearly 600 pages of handwashing, mask wearing, social distancing pictures, graphs, contact tracers, studies, data, etc Im absolutely floored there isnt more outrage about the mass protests in this thread.

This thread is full of people who have pointed out at length the presidents faults in dealing with the virus. These protests and mass gatherings are organized by groups in opposition to the man who said the virus was a joke.

Where is the outrage! Liberty has contributed hundreds of twitters links about the virus, mask wearing, hand washing, social distancing rules etc. He must be beside himself.

i have a question (not so medical) for you:

Given the next hypothetical case, out of the possibilities, which would you put on the first line of the death certificate?

Listed randomly:

-fentanyl intoxication and recent methamphetamine use

-partially blocked coronary arteries

-COVID+

-partial obliteration of trachea due to an extrinsic knee cap

 

Personally, i would put decaying culture as the main cause of death and perhaps that would trigger a call from a health authority but it would also go a long way in explaining the current state of affairs.

Sadly, this is a very good question.

 

I think it's a good assumption that members of this board are above average intelligence, reasonably well educated successful people with many advantages in life. Many members of this board have had difficulty understanding an appropriate response to the Pandemic. Ill informed message board and social media participants, disinformation, and politicians behaving like psychopaths have made communication of good information more difficult.

 

If we have had clueless people on this board, image how clueless the least among us must be. Imagine how dangerous the interactions of the least among us with police must be right now. The mentally ill and people experiencing drug induced psychosis quickly come to mind.

 

It is also sad to see almost no police using masks, face shields or gloves. Of course, they could be doing that so they don't look like the secret police, which I really appreciate, but wearing masks is a sign to everyone in the community that these are not normal times. A reminder that we could all benefit from. It's much better to just wear a mask than have to return to our homes.

[clutch]

After nearly 600 pages of handwashing, mask wearing, social distancing pictures, graphs, contact tracers, studies, data, etc Im absolutely floored there isnt more outrage about the mass protests in this thread.

 

The protesters seem to be wearing masks and using hand sanitizer, so not sure what your point is.

 

Why not open up everything then? We can all wear masks and use hand sanitizer just like the protesters and it would be safe!

[LongHaul]

It's worse (or perhaps simply more ironic) than that.  If you take these feckless politicians at their word, they are (a) encouraging the protests, which according to their own logic will result in additional deaths from Covid but (b) decrying the rioting which has resulted in massive property damage primarily. Think about it.  What they are saying is that the cause (social justice, ending racism, etc.) trumps lives but not property!!  These morons couldn't logic their way out of a paper bag.  They are human mobius strips.

 

Who exactly encourages the protests and the property damage (which was done by looters not protesters)? The protests are unfortunate, but they were not organized by any party and they are not Trump’s fault either.

 

He just poured gasoline on them by sending the national guard and the tweeting stuff like “after looting comes the shooting”, which surely didn’t help.

 

Indeed,

 

Trump is not the leader America needs in tough times. Below is the Robert F. Kennedy speech which is worth a listen in times like this.

 

 

That was one of the best speeches I have every heard in my life.  Thank You so much for posting. 

Just amazing.

[KCLarkin]

Why not open up everything then? We can all wear masks and use hand sanitizer just like the protesters and it would be safe!

 

I won't engage in your bad faith arguments. I never said masks and hand sanitizer make mass protests safe*.

 

 

* Though it is a bit insane that the U.S. and Canada refuse to mandate masks, when every country that with mandatory masking has controlled the pandemic.

 

 

[clutch]

Why not open up everything then? We can all wear masks and use hand sanitizer just like the protesters and it would be safe!

 

I won't engage in your bad faith arguments. I never said masks and hand sanitizer make mass protests safe.

 

Ok, back to good faith argument --

 

I remember you saying that millions potentially dying of COVID is horrible.

These protests, while intended for a good cause, surely increases the chance of more people dying due to COVID.

 

So how do you weigh the balance?

 

In general, is this how the left in the US weigh things? (based on my observations)

Systematic racism > Public health > Economy and freedom

 

[mcliu]

If we can have safe mass protests, it’s probably time to just open things up and require face masks and hand sanitizer. Especially if a second wave is inevitable anyways.

[LC]

If we can have safe mass protests, it’s probably time to just open things up and require face masks and hand sanitizer. Especially if a second wave is inevitable anyways.

 

Agree. But to be fair not a lot of elderly (most at-risk COVID group) are protesting, at least from what I've seen