Coronavirus

[Casey]

Just because some internet clowns paid 25$ for a COBF membership doesn't mean you have to argue with them for 100 pages.

 

<pig in the mud quote>

[LC]

Out of respect for Greg and in the name of true journalism, I'll only be posting twitter links now :D

 

Apparently coronavirus was present in France in December:

https://www.politico.eu/article/france-looks-into-suspected-coronavirus-case-dating-back-to-december/

 

Cohen said his patient was one of 24 who were hospitalized for pneumonia in December and January in two hospitals in the Paris region — Jean-Verdier in Bondy and Avicenne in Bobigny — and whom his team decided to retroactively test for COVID-19.

 

Cohen said his team carried out so-called PCR tests on the patients at the time to detect the presence of the flu or other viruses. The team recently decided to test the patients’ samples to detect COVID-19.

 

“Out of 24 patients, we got one that tested positive for COVID-19 on December 27, when he was hospitalized at Jean-Verdier,” Cohen told BFM TV.

[rb]

How about we bailout states but also give the same amount of money to every other state? If they want to use it for healthcare or some other reason, it's up to each one.

So let me get this straight. The states that pay more than the receive (let's call them the makers) tend to be large and blue. The states that pay less than they receive tend to be small and red (let's call them the takers).

 

The makers are more affected by this because it turns out that density matters in how a virus spreads. But the makers and the takers should get the same amount on money. Moreover the takers should get a lot more per capita because they are smaller. In addition the takers who don't need the money for health care because they have low density should feel free to spend the money on whatever they want i.e tax cuts (preferably on the rich) as is their custom.

 

Did I get this one right? But please feel free to lecture me more about corruption, China and the fisting of the common man.

[ERICOPOLY]

How about we bailout states but also give the same amount of money to every other state? If they want to use it for healthcare or some other reason, it's up to each one.

 

You have a deal as long as, going forward, California collectively pays to the Federal government the same amount in tax as the smallest state pays.

 

Okay, I'll go back to raking California's forest for now.

[Dalal.Holdings]

How about we bailout states but also give the same amount of money to every other state? If they want to use it for healthcare or some other reason, it's up to each one.

So let me get this straight. The states that pay more than the receive (let's call them the makers) tend to be large and blue. The states that pay less than they receive tend to be small and red (let's call them the takers).

 

The makers are more affected by this because it turns out that density matters in how a virus spreads. But the makers and the takers should get the same amount on money. Moreover the takers should get a lot more per capita because they are smaller. In addition the takers who don't need the money for health care because they have low density should feel free to spend the money on whatever they want i.e tax cuts (preferably on the rich) as is their custom.

 

Did I get this one right? But please feel free to lecture me more about corruption, China and the fisting of the common man.

 

The Trump supporters claim they are against welfare and food stamps. That's not true when it comes to themselves.

 

They come up with all sorts of excuses to get welfare/handouts for themselves, they just call it by a different name to preserve their pride. The red states routinely take in more from high GDP blue states, they can't face that reality though.

 

Let's not forget the GOP's favorite handout--farm "subsidies".

 

What do you call Trump's efforts to bail out the energy sector and subsidize it? Welfare, just not by name.

 

What do you call the massive defense budget/corrupt contractor relationships? More welfare.

 

I will leave aside other Trump welfare programs for his supporters: the trade war and his anti-immigration stances are meant for workers who can't compete in the global economy. Yes, China engages in unfair practices and illegal immigration should be curtailed, but the broader purpose of anti-globalization and anti-immigration is beyond that--it's also to partially subsidize those who can't compete.

 

Didn't R's use to say "if you want to be successful, just lift yourself up by your bootstraps and work hard, son!" Guess that don't apply anymore.

[ERICOPOLY]

Chinese propaganda bots have infected CoBF.  Examples:

 

If you have any facts to share on COVID19 or the response to the crisis, go for it. Otherwise, you're the Trump propaganda bot.

 

What is a China propaganda bot?  Is this one?

 

“China has been working very hard to contain the Coronavirus,” Trump wrote in a post on Twitter. “The United States greatly appreciates their efforts and transparency. It will all work out well. In particular, on behalf of the American People, I want to thank President Xi!”

[Gregmal]

Out of respect for Greg and in the name of true journalism, I'll only be posting twitter links now :D

 

Apparently coronavirus was present in France in December:

https://www.politico.eu/article/france-looks-into-suspected-coronavirus-case-dating-back-to-december/

 

Cohen said his patient was one of 24 who were hospitalized for pneumonia in December and January in two hospitals in the Paris region — Jean-Verdier in Bondy and Avicenne in Bobigny — and whom his team decided to retroactively test for COVID-19.

 

Cohen said his team carried out so-called PCR tests on the patients at the time to detect the presence of the flu or other viruses. The team recently decided to test the patients’ samples to detect COVID-19.

 

“Out of 24 patients, we got one that tested positive for COVID-19 on December 27, when he was hospitalized at Jean-Verdier,” Cohen told BFM TV.

 

Of course this will be ignored by all the blabbermouths who attacked folks for bringing up such possibilities....Because gosh darn, it took away from our zombie apocalypse narrative...

[orthopa]

Out of respect for Greg and in the name of true journalism, I'll only be posting twitter links now :D

 

Apparently coronavirus was present in France in December:

https://www.politico.eu/article/france-looks-into-suspected-coronavirus-case-dating-back-to-december/

 

Cohen said his patient was one of 24 who were hospitalized for pneumonia in December and January in two hospitals in the Paris region — Jean-Verdier in Bondy and Avicenne in Bobigny — and whom his team decided to retroactively test for COVID-19.

 

Cohen said his team carried out so-called PCR tests on the patients at the time to detect the presence of the flu or other viruses. The team recently decided to test the patients’ samples to detect COVID-19.

 

“Out of 24 patients, we got one that tested positive for COVID-19 on December 27, when he was hospitalized at Jean-Verdier,” Cohen told BFM TV.

 

Of course this will be ignored by all the blabbermouths who attacked folks for bringing up such possibilities....Because gosh darn, it took away from our zombie apocalypse narrative...

 

I didnt see it either.  ;) Ive been busy over redigging the holes to move the goal posts to retroactively prove what antibodies and these stories have told us.  ::)

 

Looking back in the thread I took some pretty good heat for this. Im for one glad this info keeps coming out. Good to see.

[cobafdek]

Bots, as well as anti-Trumpers deep in TDS, can't recognize negotiation tactics and diplomacy.

 

Chinese propaganda bots have infected CoBF.  Examples:

 

If you have any facts to share on COVID19 or the response to the crisis, go for it. Otherwise, you're the Trump propaganda bot.

 

What is a China propaganda bot?  Is this one?

 

“China has been working very hard to contain the Coronavirus,” Trump wrote in a post on Twitter. “The United States greatly appreciates their efforts and transparency. It will all work out well. In particular, on behalf of the American People, I want to thank President Xi!”

 

If you have to ask, you've failed the Turing test.

[Gregmal]

Out of respect for Greg and in the name of true journalism, I'll only be posting twitter links now :D

 

Apparently coronavirus was present in France in December:

https://www.politico.eu/article/france-looks-into-suspected-coronavirus-case-dating-back-to-december/

 

Cohen said his patient was one of 24 who were hospitalized for pneumonia in December and January in two hospitals in the Paris region — Jean-Verdier in Bondy and Avicenne in Bobigny — and whom his team decided to retroactively test for COVID-19.

 

Cohen said his team carried out so-called PCR tests on the patients at the time to detect the presence of the flu or other viruses. The team recently decided to test the patients’ samples to detect COVID-19.

 

“Out of 24 patients, we got one that tested positive for COVID-19 on December 27, when he was hospitalized at Jean-Verdier,” Cohen told BFM TV.

 

Of course this will be ignored by all the blabbermouths who attacked folks for bringing up such possibilities....Because gosh darn, it took away from our zombie apocalypse narrative...

 

I didnt see it either.  ;) Ive been busy over redigging the holes to move the goal posts to retroactively prove what antibodies and these stories have told us.  ::)

 

Looking back in the thread I took some pretty good heat for this. Im for one glad this info keeps coming out. Good to see.

 

Yea, the way its shaping up, the ones who proclaimed themselves right about everything after like 2-3 days are going to end up having been wrong about literally everything.... ironic.

[ERICOPOLY]

Bots, as well as anti-Trumpers deep in TDS, can't recognize negotiation tactics and diplomacy.

 

Chinese propaganda bots have infected CoBF.  Examples:

 

If you have any facts to share on COVID19 or the response to the crisis, go for it. Otherwise, you're the Trump propaganda bot.

 

What is a China propaganda bot?  Is this one?

 

“China has been working very hard to contain the Coronavirus,” Trump wrote in a post on Twitter. “The United States greatly appreciates their efforts and transparency. It will all work out well. In particular, on behalf of the American People, I want to thank President Xi!”

 

If you have to ask, you've failed the Turing test.

 

What ever happened to 'infidels'?  What's up with the newfangled name calling?

 

Such clever propaganda -- all criticisms are just lies from the infidels.  You are falling for it head over heels.

[RichardGibbons]

I didnt see it either.  ;) Ive been busy over redigging the holes to move the goal posts to retroactively prove what antibodies and these stories have told us.  ::)

 

Looking back in the thread I took some pretty good heat for this. Im for one glad this info keeps coming out. Good to see.

 

You've been proven wrong, and still won't acknowledge it. It's pretty clear that only data that supports your old arguments matter to you.

[Dalal.Holdings]

Bots, as well as anti-Trumpers deep in TDS, can't recognize negotiation tactics and diplomacy.

 

Chinese propaganda bots have infected CoBF.  Examples:

 

If you have any facts to share on COVID19 or the response to the crisis, go for it. Otherwise, you're the Trump propaganda bot.

 

What is a China propaganda bot?  Is this one?

 

“China has been working very hard to contain the Coronavirus,” Trump wrote in a post on Twitter. “The United States greatly appreciates their efforts and transparency. It will all work out well. In particular, on behalf of the American People, I want to thank President Xi!”

 

If you have to ask, you've failed the Turing test.

 

What ever happened to 'infidels'?  What's up with the newfangled name calling?

 

Such clever propaganda -- all criticisms are just lies from the infidels.  You are falling for it head over heels.

 

Yes, anyone who disagrees with them is a 'bot', 'traitor', 'not a patriot', etc.

 

Yet they're the ones who want to deny states suffering from crisis aid and they're the ones who put a sociopath in office that will "destroy the system".

 

They came over from the politics section section because they can't stand by while their dear leader is criticized for his terrible management of the pandemic!

 

Sunk cost fallacy! Trump bag holders...

[stahleyp]

How about we bailout states but also give the same amount of money to every other state? If they want to use it for healthcare or some other reason, it's up to each one.

 

You have a deal as long as, going forward, California collectively pays to the Federal government the same amount in tax as the smallest state pays.

 

Okay, I'll go back to raking California's forest for now.

 

Sure but only if they'll jack up interest rates and stop bailing out the stock market and we'll see how dynamic CA's economy really is. ;)

[stahleyp]

How about we bailout states but also give the same amount of money to every other state? If they want to use it for healthcare or some other reason, it's up to each one.

So let me get this straight. The states that pay more than the receive (let's call them the makers) tend to be large and blue. The states that pay less than they receive tend to be small and red (let's call them the takers).

 

The makers are more affected by this because it turns out that density matters in how a virus spreads. But the makers and the takers should get the same amount on money. Moreover the takers should get a lot more per capita because they are smaller. In addition the takers who don't need the money for health care because they have low density should feel free to spend the money on whatever they want i.e tax cuts (preferably on the rich) as is their custom.

 

Did I get this one right? But please feel free to lecture me more about corruption, China and the fisting of the common man.

 

I like the idea of all states paying an equal amount to the government too (probably on a per capita basis). No bailouts, market rate interest rates.

[Spekulatius]

Please get back on topic - nasty disease, death, ventilators , lack of testing. Plenty to discuss without each other calling names.

[Dalal.Holdings]

Singapore: 18 deaths/19,000 cases

 

Deaths not growing any faster...

 

Is it all attributed to "healthy" migrants?

[Investor20]

Why no discussion about Japan?

 

The daily cases show steady decrease after maximum at about 600 in middle of April to now about 180-200.

 

For a crowded, cold country with subways and bullet trains (public transport), old age its pretty good

without lockdown.

 

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/japan/

[Investor20]

Looks like treatment for Covid is changing.

 

https://science.sciencemag.org/content/368/6490/455

 

"Among the many surprises of the new coronavirus is one that seems to defy basic biology: infected patients with extraordinarily low blood-oxygen levels, or hypoxia, scrolling on their phones, chatting with doctors, and generally describing themselves as comfortable. Clinicians call them happy hypoxics."

.....

In serious cases of COVID-19, patients struggle to breathe with damaged lungs, but early in the disease, low saturation isn't always coupled with obvious respiratory difficulties. Carbon dioxide levels can be normal, and breathing deeply is comfortable—“the lung is inflating so they feel OK,” says Elnara Marcia Negri, a pulmonologist at Hospital Sírio-Libanês in São Paulo. But oxygen saturation, measured by a device clipped to a finger and in many cases confirmed with blood tests, can be in the 70s, 60s, or 50s. Or even lower. Although mountain climbers can have similar readings, here the slide downward, some doctors believe, is potentially “ominous,” says Nicholas Caputo, an emergency physician at New York City Health + Hospitals/Lincoln.

 

 

Seems like doctors have identified blood coagulation as a potential reason and using heparin.  Here is a hospital guideline.

 

https://www.massgeneral.org/assets/MGH/pdf/news/coronavirus/guidance-from-mass-general-hematology.pdf

 

https://www.news-medical.net/news/20200426/Early-Heparin-therapy-improves-hypoxia-in-COVID-19-patients.aspx

The systemic use of heparin for treating severe coronavirus disease (COVID-19) showed significant improvements in oxygen exchange and overall clinical presentation of patients, as reported by a study from Brazil available on a preprint server medRxiv.

 

Some articles are also recommending using oximeters as breathing would seem ok and would help to get early treatment*

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/20/opinion/sunday/coronavirus-testing-pneumonia.html

 

Some doctors are recommending starting with CPAP/Bipap oxygen support as the patients are breathing ok

https://www.statnews.com/2020/04/08/doctors-say-ventilators-overused-for-covid-19/

Even as hospitals and governors raise the alarm about a shortage of ventilators, some critical care physicians are questioning the widespread use of the breathing machines for Covid-19 patients, saying that large numbers of patients could instead be treated with less intensive respiratory support.

 

Would be interesting to see how these changes would effect the fatality rates.

 

[RichardGibbons]

Why no discussion about Japan?

 

The daily cases show steady decrease after maximum at about 600 in middle of April to now about 180-200.

 

For a crowded, cold country with subways and bullet trains (public transport), old age its pretty good

without lockdown.

 

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/japan/

 

My theory is that it's because the Japanese are culturally socially distanced compared to most other cultures and are also happy to wear masks. Do you have any other theories, Investor20?

[Investor20]

Why no discussion about Japan?

 

The daily cases show steady decrease after maximum at about 600 in middle of April to now about 180-200.

 

For a crowded, cold country with subways and bullet trains (public transport), old age its pretty good

without lockdown.

 

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/japan/

 

My theory is that it's because the Japanese are culturally socially distanced compared to most other cultures and are also happy to wear masks. Do you have any other theories, Investor20?

 

Agreed.  Also they started early with masks in January itself.

 

They also seem to emphasize the small droplets due to asymptomatic carriers which can carry longer distances and wont deposit on surfaces like larger droplets after coughing and sneezing.

 

Masks help in reducing spread of smaller droplets.  One can also open windows and doors for fresh air to clear the smaller droplets from air. 

 

I am not suggesting not to clean surfaces, hands, etc. 

 

I am suggesting all of them have to be done (masks, cleaning, social distancing, having air flow) and Japan suggests we can have low transmission even without lockdown.

 

If I have to meet someone, I will meet them outdoors. 

 

[Cigarbutt]

Looks like treatment for Covid is changing.

https://science.sciencemag.org/content/368/6490/455

"Among the many surprises of the new coronavirus is one that seems to defy basic biology: infected patients with extraordinarily low blood-oxygen levels, or hypoxia, scrolling on their phones, chatting with doctors, and generally describing themselves as comfortable. Clinicians call them happy hypoxics."

.....

In serious cases of COVID-19, patients struggle to breathe with damaged lungs, but early in the disease, low saturation isn't always coupled with obvious respiratory difficulties. Carbon dioxide levels can be normal, and breathing deeply is comfortable—“the lung is inflating so they feel OK,” says Elnara Marcia Negri, a pulmonologist at Hospital Sírio-Libanês in São Paulo. But oxygen saturation, measured by a device clipped to a finger and in many cases confirmed with blood tests, can be in the 70s, 60s, or 50s. Or even lower. Although mountain climbers can have similar readings, here the slide downward, some doctors believe, is potentially “ominous,” says Nicholas Caputo, an emergency physician at New York City Health + Hospitals/Lincoln.

Seems like doctors have identified blood coagulation as a potential reason and using heparin.  Here is a hospital guideline.

https://www.massgeneral.org/assets/MGH/pdf/news/coronavirus/guidance-from-mass-general-hematology.pdf

https://www.news-medical.net/news/20200426/Early-Heparin-therapy-improves-hypoxia-in-COVID-19-patients.aspx

The systemic use of heparin for treating severe coronavirus disease (COVID-19) showed significant improvements in oxygen exchange and overall clinical presentation of patients, as reported by a study from Brazil available on a preprint server medRxiv.

Some articles are also recommending using oximeters as breathing would seem ok and would help to get early treatment*

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/20/opinion/sunday/coronavirus-testing-pneumonia.html

Some doctors are recommending starting with CPAP/Bipap oxygen support as the patients are breathing ok

https://www.statnews.com/2020/04/08/doctors-say-ventilators-overused-for-covid-19/

Even as hospitals and governors raise the alarm about a shortage of ventilators, some critical care physicians are questioning the widespread use of the breathing machines for Covid-19 patients, saying that large numbers of patients could instead be treated with less intensive respiratory support.

Would be interesting to see how these changes would effect the fatality rates.

For the coagulation part, it's been suggested that anticoagulation could be associated with a better outcome for more severe presentations but most people admitted in ICUs these days typically get anticoagulation anyways so this does not seem promising in terms of more than a possible marginal improvement in some cases.

The more promising treatment options will likely directly interfere with the viral load itself and not with the consequences of the virus.

[SHDL]

Why no discussion about Japan?

 

The daily cases show steady decrease after maximum at about 600 in middle of April to now about 180-200.

 

For a crowded, cold country with subways and bullet trains (public transport), old age its pretty good

without lockdown.

 

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/japan/

 

This anomaly was apparently what got some people to look into the BCG theory that I posted about a while ago. It has some merit (IMO) and a clinical trial is underway in Australia and a few other places. I hope it proves correct as that would greatly improve the outlook.

[Investor20]

Looks like treatment for Covid is changing.

https://science.sciencemag.org/content/368/6490/455

"Among the many surprises of the new coronavirus is one that seems to defy basic biology: infected patients with extraordinarily low blood-oxygen levels, or hypoxia, scrolling on their phones, chatting with doctors, and generally describing themselves as comfortable. Clinicians call them happy hypoxics."

.....

In serious cases of COVID-19, patients struggle to breathe with damaged lungs, but early in the disease, low saturation isn't always coupled with obvious respiratory difficulties. Carbon dioxide levels can be normal, and breathing deeply is comfortable—“the lung is inflating so they feel OK,” says Elnara Marcia Negri, a pulmonologist at Hospital Sírio-Libanês in São Paulo. But oxygen saturation, measured by a device clipped to a finger and in many cases confirmed with blood tests, can be in the 70s, 60s, or 50s. Or even lower. Although mountain climbers can have similar readings, here the slide downward, some doctors believe, is potentially “ominous,” says Nicholas Caputo, an emergency physician at New York City Health + Hospitals/Lincoln.

Seems like doctors have identified blood coagulation as a potential reason and using heparin.  Here is a hospital guideline.

https://www.massgeneral.org/assets/MGH/pdf/news/coronavirus/guidance-from-mass-general-hematology.pdf

https://www.news-medical.net/news/20200426/Early-Heparin-therapy-improves-hypoxia-in-COVID-19-patients.aspx

The systemic use of heparin for treating severe coronavirus disease (COVID-19) showed significant improvements in oxygen exchange and overall clinical presentation of patients, as reported by a study from Brazil available on a preprint server medRxiv.

Some articles are also recommending using oximeters as breathing would seem ok and would help to get early treatment*

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/20/opinion/sunday/coronavirus-testing-pneumonia.html

Some doctors are recommending starting with CPAP/Bipap oxygen support as the patients are breathing ok

https://www.statnews.com/2020/04/08/doctors-say-ventilators-overused-for-covid-19/

Even as hospitals and governors raise the alarm about a shortage of ventilators, some critical care physicians are questioning the widespread use of the breathing machines for Covid-19 patients, saying that large numbers of patients could instead be treated with less intensive respiratory support.

Would be interesting to see how these changes would effect the fatality rates.

For the coagulation part, it's been suggested that anticoagulation could be associated with a better outcome for more severe presentations but most people admitted in ICUs these days typically get anticoagulation anyways so this does not seem promising in terms of more than a possible marginal improvement in some cases.

The more promising treatment options will likely directly interfere with the viral load itself and not with the consequences of the virus.

 

From the Massachusetts General Hospital guidelines

 

"All patients admitted to MGH for COVID-19 (including non-critically ill) should receive standard prophylactic anticoagulation with LMWH"

 

Looks like all admissions, not just ICU.

[Spekulatius]

Looks like treatment for Covid is changing.

https://science.sciencemag.org/content/368/6490/455

"Among the many surprises of the new coronavirus is one that seems to defy basic biology: infected patients with extraordinarily low blood-oxygen levels, or hypoxia, scrolling on their phones, chatting with doctors, and generally describing themselves as comfortable. Clinicians call them happy hypoxics."

.....

In serious cases of COVID-19, patients struggle to breathe with damaged lungs, but early in the disease, low saturation isn't always coupled with obvious respiratory difficulties. Carbon dioxide levels can be normal, and breathing deeply is comfortable—“the lung is inflating so they feel OK,” says Elnara Marcia Negri, a pulmonologist at Hospital Sírio-Libanês in São Paulo. But oxygen saturation, measured by a device clipped to a finger and in many cases confirmed with blood tests, can be in the 70s, 60s, or 50s. Or even lower. Although mountain climbers can have similar readings, here the slide downward, some doctors believe, is potentially “ominous,” says Nicholas Caputo, an emergency physician at New York City Health + Hospitals/Lincoln.

Seems like doctors have identified blood coagulation as a potential reason and using heparin.  Here is a hospital guideline.

https://www.massgeneral.org/assets/MGH/pdf/news/coronavirus/guidance-from-mass-general-hematology.pdf

https://www.news-medical.net/news/20200426/Early-Heparin-therapy-improves-hypoxia-in-COVID-19-patients.aspx

The systemic use of heparin for treating severe coronavirus disease (COVID-19) showed significant improvements in oxygen exchange and overall clinical presentation of patients, as reported by a study from Brazil available on a preprint server medRxiv.

Some articles are also recommending using oximeters as breathing would seem ok and would help to get early treatment*

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/20/opinion/sunday/coronavirus-testing-pneumonia.html

Some doctors are recommending starting with CPAP/Bipap oxygen support as the patients are breathing ok

https://www.statnews.com/2020/04/08/doctors-say-ventilators-overused-for-covid-19/

Even as hospitals and governors raise the alarm about a shortage of ventilators, some critical care physicians are questioning the widespread use of the breathing machines for Covid-19 patients, saying that large numbers of patients could instead be treated with less intensive respiratory support.

Would be interesting to see how these changes would effect the fatality rates.

For the coagulation part, it's been suggested that anticoagulation could be associated with a better outcome for more severe presentations but most people admitted in ICUs these days typically get anticoagulation anyways so this does not seem promising in terms of more than a possible marginal improvement in some cases.

The more promising treatment options will likely directly interfere with the viral load itself and not with the consequences of the virus.

 

Yes, my wife works with dialysis patients exclusively and there are a lot of them them need dialysis to due to COVID complications (kidney shutting down). She noticed right away during the week in late March with COVID patients that here dialysis machine was jamming up and something was wrong with the blood of these patients. It is true the the doctors now right this with blood thinners and also clot busters. It is tricky for my wife, because if something goes wrong these patients can bleed out in minutes.

 

Still, the prognosis for these patients doesn‘t seem that great, from what I am hearing from my wife. The real breakthrough for outcome will be to prevent this Complication of organs shutting down to begin with, imo (talking as a layman here).