Grocery Prices

[Gregmal]

Ha! Hopefully. I heard Jonathan Litt(le) thinks its a short though. If it goes to zero its bread and butter sandwiches 3x a day.

 

But, yea the hidden item is a bad La Croix habit, maybe a half dozen a day. And we (used to) go out to eat a bunch as well. And spend $200+ a meal on sushi every Saturday. Plus my boating hobby.

 

This new thing has basically been coronavirus inspired. Good excuse to get out, and cooking is then the activity. Store is 5 minutes from the house, takes about 20 minutes in the store, so maybe a half hour or so a day and then an hour of prep and cooking. Lemons out of lemonade. The kiddos have also been a factor. Anyone with little kids will tell you, they pick what they eat. So despite attempts to get them to eat better, its usually binging through the same stuff until they get sick of it. 3 hots dogs for lunch and then a huge bag of grapes for dinner, for a week. Then its Mac and cheese every other meal. The strangest one was fried conch and alligator my son had in the Florida Keys. Got back to NJ and wanted that almost every day for about two weeks. Had to go to the big Chinese Market 45 minutes away to get those things.

 

And dividends are to be reinvested! That way we lose everything on the path to nil.

[LC]

Amen!

[Parsad]

... So as you can see, breakfast $10-15 covers a family of 4 for a week. Lunch you're running $10 a day, and dinner probably $10 a day as well. Insane considering before kids I would regularly spend $50 a meal, and often $100 for dinner.

 

Greg,

 

As you perhaps already know, I'm pretty observant to facts posted here on CoBF, and by all means much-much more observant how those so-called facts are processed and handled. So, to me, you are here just such a low-life cheat fiddling with your numbers  that you post here on CoBF, dividing by four, instead of dividing by four-and-something! [ : - D]

 

I hope everything is evolving well over time for your part, and yours! Take care [ : - ) ]

 

[The rest that we're talking about here on CoBF is "just money" [and all that].]

 

In short - now that I actually think about it - there is no capital gain comparable to become a parent again! [ : - ) ]

 

Haha thanks John. Yes, things are well. Just another "period of adjustment" as seems to currently be the norm in the world.

 

 

I'll do one more day, and then stop posting my daily meals. Just trying to emphasize how it is possible to eat well and cheap. One thing I have found very helpful is that going to the store daily and buying only really what I need for the days meals, greatly cuts back on waste/saves money. Previously, or when I go to Costco, its very easy to fall into a "I'll have some of this, and a bit of that, and oh, throw this in the cart too" mindset. Much of that stuff either goes bad or sits in the pantry collecting dust.

 

Breakfast

 

Eggs Benedict:

Eggs 2.49 carton

Hollandaise sauce 1.29 packet

English muffins 1.50 a sleeve for store brand

French toast for kids 2.79 for a box that lasts a week

6 coffees(I drink too much) K cup style 80 ct is $20

Apple juice 2.99 a jug, lasts 2 weeks

 

Lunch

Pierogi 3.79 a tray

Sautéed Onion 1.99 lb

Fish sticks for the kids 2.99 a box (although typically I catch the walleye and wife breads them, so free, unless you want to incorporate all the boating/fishing expenses, which will be an obnoxious add on)

 

Dinner

Skate Wings 7.99 lb

Asparagus 1.99 a bundle

capers 1.79 a jar

couscous 1.99 a box

pizza bites for the kids 1.99 a bag which lasts 2 meals

 

6 cups of coffee for breakfast...or do you mean you drink that through the whole day?  No headaches, sleeping problems, etc?  I have one cup in the morning or afternoon (large mug size), and a decaf cup after dinner (dinner cup size).  6 cups...I'd be wired!  Cheers!

[Parsad]

How much time do you spend getting groceries everyday?

 

1 hour every week if I'm ordering online and getting delivered.  If I have to go to the store, then it's 1.5-2 hours every week because I'm hitting the grocery store and the drug store. 

 

Every two weeks, I go to the country market as well to pickup fresh produce and a few other things...30-40 minutes every two weeks. 

 

Other than that, one big shopping trip usually 2-3 weeks before Christmas.

 

Cheers!

[Gregmal]

Usually 4-6 cups by noon, or some variation of a bunch of K cups and a large ice coffee from Dunkin. Always black. Usually only on weekdays/work days. Occasional headaches, but nothing bad. I dont sleep a lot to begin with, so there's that. Mainly just a byproduct of habit. Been doing it for years. Then theres the half dozen La Croix after noon. Ive found drinking a lot helps curb my appetite, which helps me focus and be more productive.

[ERICOPOLY]

I'm watching last night's ABC news on Hulu.  This fear over a pork shortage due to covid-19 is such a non-crisis.  The best thing that could probably happen to the US health is to cut meat consumption down by 80%, even 100%.  It's alarming that Trump used an executive order to keep meat packing plants open, so unnecessary.

[Spekulatius]

... So as you can see, breakfast $10-15 covers a family of 4 for a week. Lunch you're running $10 a day, and dinner probably $10 a day as well. Insane considering before kids I would regularly spend $50 a meal, and often $100 for dinner.

 

Greg,

 

As you perhaps already know, I'm pretty observant to facts posted here on CoBF, and by all means much-much more observant how those so-called facts are processed and handled. So, to me, you are here just such a low-life cheat fiddling with your numbers  that you post here on CoBF, dividing by four, instead of dividing by four-and-something! [ : - D]

 

I hope everything is evolving well over time for your part, and yours! Take care [ : - ) ]

 

[The rest that we're talking about here on CoBF is "just money" [and all that].]

 

In short - now that I actually think about it - there is no capital gain comparable to become a parent again! [ : - ) ]

 

Haha thanks John. Yes, things are well. Just another "period of adjustment" as seems to currently be the norm in the world.

 

 

I'll do one more day, and then stop posting my daily meals. Just trying to emphasize how it is possible to eat well and cheap. One thing I have found very helpful is that going to the store daily and buying only really what I need for the days meals, greatly cuts back on waste/saves money. Previously, or when I go to Costco, its very easy to fall into a "I'll have some of this, and a bit of that, and oh, throw this in the cart too" mindset. Much of that stuff either goes bad or sits in the pantry collecting dust.

 

Breakfast

 

Eggs Benedict:

Eggs 2.49 carton

Hollandaise sauce 1.29 packet

English muffins 1.50 a sleeve for store brand

French toast for kids 2.79 for a box that lasts a week

6 coffees(I drink too much) K cup style 80 ct is $20

Apple juice 2.99 a jug, lasts 2 weeks

 

Lunch

Pierogi 3.79 a tray

Sautéed Onion 1.99 lb

Fish sticks for the kids 2.99 a box (although typically I catch the walleye and wife breads them, so free, unless you want to incorporate all the boating/fishing expenses, which will be an obnoxious add on)

 

Dinner

Skate Wings 7.99 lb

Asparagus 1.99 a bundle

capers 1.79 a jar

couscous 1.99 a box

pizza bites for the kids 1.99 a bag which lasts 2 meals

 

I wouldn’t exactly rate fish sticks, French toast, pizza bites and apple juice as healthy for kids.

 

We try to limit our grocery shopping to 1x a week, mostly trips to Costco. Sometimes we do a second trip to the Market basket to pick up some veggies etc. We used to go to a local farm and a local higher end butcher, but not that much this year because we now limit trips. I might check out the local farm again this year.

[Parsad]

Usually 4-6 cups by noon, or some variation of a bunch of K cups and a large ice coffee from Dunkin. Always black. Usually only on weekdays/work days. Occasional headaches, but nothing bad. I dont sleep a lot to begin with, so there's that. Mainly just a byproduct of habit. Been doing it for years. Then theres the half dozen La Croix after noon. Ive found drinking a lot helps curb my appetite, which helps me focus and be more productive.

 

Four in a whole day, sure ok...but six before noon...wow!  Yeah, my eyes would be buggin' out!  Although all the La Croix might be flushing the caffeine out of your system, so that might work.

 

The other thing is that I really enjoy my coffee more when I have less...so I actually do savor each cup.  My face does light up like a Folger's commercial in the morning.

 

I do switch to a cup of iced coffee during the summer months in the morning, but I still stick to the two cups a day thing.  Cheers! 

[Gregmal]

... So as you can see, breakfast $10-15 covers a family of 4 for a week. Lunch you're running $10 a day, and dinner probably $10 a day as well. Insane considering before kids I would regularly spend $50 a meal, and often $100 for dinner.

 

Greg,

 

As you perhaps already know, I'm pretty observant to facts posted here on CoBF, and by all means much-much more observant how those so-called facts are processed and handled. So, to me, you are here just such a low-life cheat fiddling with your numbers  that you post here on CoBF, dividing by four, instead of dividing by four-and-something! [ : - D]

 

I hope everything is evolving well over time for your part, and yours! Take care [ : - ) ]

 

[The rest that we're talking about here on CoBF is "just money" [and all that].]

 

In short - now that I actually think about it - there is no capital gain comparable to become a parent again! [ : - ) ]

 

Haha thanks John. Yes, things are well. Just another "period of adjustment" as seems to currently be the norm in the world.

 

 

I'll do one more day, and then stop posting my daily meals. Just trying to emphasize how it is possible to eat well and cheap. One thing I have found very helpful is that going to the store daily and buying only really what I need for the days meals, greatly cuts back on waste/saves money. Previously, or when I go to Costco, its very easy to fall into a "I'll have some of this, and a bit of that, and oh, throw this in the cart too" mindset. Much of that stuff either goes bad or sits in the pantry collecting dust.

 

Breakfast

 

Eggs Benedict:

Eggs 2.49 carton

Hollandaise sauce 1.29 packet

English muffins 1.50 a sleeve for store brand

French toast for kids 2.79 for a box that lasts a week

6 coffees(I drink too much) K cup style 80 ct is $20

Apple juice 2.99 a jug, lasts 2 weeks

 

Lunch

Pierogi 3.79 a tray

Sautéed Onion 1.99 lb

Fish sticks for the kids 2.99 a box (although typically I catch the walleye and wife breads them, so free, unless you want to incorporate all the boating/fishing expenses, which will be an obnoxious add on)

 

Dinner

Skate Wings 7.99 lb

Asparagus 1.99 a bundle

capers 1.79 a jar

couscous 1.99 a box

pizza bites for the kids 1.99 a bag which lasts 2 meals

 

I wouldn’t exactly rate fish sticks, French toast, pizza bites and apple juice as healthy for kids.

 

We try to limit our grocery shopping to 1x a week, mostly trips to Costco. Sometimes we do a second trip to the Market basket to pick up some veggies etc. We used to go to a local farm and a local higher end butcher, but not that much this year because we now limit trips. I might check out the local farm again this year.

 

If you've got any secret on how to get 1-3 year olds to eat veggies, please pass them along! Best I get is occasionally some broccoli heads or carrots cuz we tell them they will be able to see in the dark. But everything else just goes cold or ends up on the floor. I figure once they start school the habits will get straightened out. I noticed when my son started 2 hour a day pre school that peer pressure is a wonderful thing when it comes to lunches. Stuff he wouldn't dream of touching at home he ate no problem simply because everyone else was eating it during school lunch. Oh yea, that is if we ever get back to school!

[cwericb]

"Plus my boating hobby. "

 

In that case you're just lucky to be able to afford to eat. I know the hard way.

There is more than a little truth in the old definition that a boat is a hole in the water that you try to fill up with money. :)

[meiroy]

 

How to get kids to eat veggies based on my own kids(thus having an insignificant statistical meaning):

 

0. Are YOU having lots of veggies or are you eating processed crap? Your kids see and smell what you eat.

 

1. Have as much variety as possible, see what they like. Steamed, fried, or baked. Salad.  Mixed. Have them help you prepare the meal, wash the vegetables or cut them, etc. Whatever works.

 

2. While making sure they receive a sufficient amount of calories, reduce sugar/sweet as much as possible. If a kid is having a massive amount of sugar via sugar covered breakfast or bread, veggies would taste like crap.

 

3. A general tip:  one can have great nutritional food for kids without any cooking, e.g. some nuts, egg with salt on it, gouda cheese, a tablespoon of peanut butter.  Takes a second to prepare.

 

I hope Eric starts a thread about being a Vegan, under Strategies.

 

 

[bizaro86]

My tips for getting kids to eat veggies (i have 2 boys age 4/6). I know new parents get 250% of the advice they want, but you did ask...

 

- put it out every single meal.  Preservance is key here. 1/3 is hard, and it does get easier.

- put it out first, and when they are hungry. This worked really well with our youngest. He would be hungry and at the table for lunch, and I'd be finishing up the pasta or grilled cheese or whatever, and we just put the veggies on his plate and walked away to finish the other stuff.

- let them help with it somehow, even just cutting a cherry tomato in half or "helping" peel a carrot gives them ownership

- get the good stuff. My older son wouldn't eat tomatoes until we switched to a small farm-owned produce stand for them. They're way better, and now he has tomatoes, cucumbers, and carrots with every single lunch.

[Gregmal]

Good stuff, thanks!

[BG2008]

I'm watching last night's ABC news on Hulu.  This fear over a pork shortage due to covid-19 is such a non-crisis.  The best thing that could probably happen to the US health is to cut meat consumption down by 80%, even 100%.  It's alarming that Trump used an executive order to keep meat packing plants open, so unnecessary.

 

Trigger alert!

 

Doctors hate this trick! I cut my net carbs down to 20 grams/day and all a sudden i lose 40-45lbs in a 16 month period.  I didn't even exercise much.  My diet is a little heavy on bacon and eggs at the moment. 

 

(Eric, to each his/her own.  Keto is the way that I keep the weight off.  Please play along with this faux meat vs Vegan drama that I am creating.)

[Spekulatius]

 

How to get kids to eat veggies based on my own kids(thus having an insignificant statistical meaning):

 

0. Are YOU having lots of veggies or are you eating processed crap? Your kids see and smell what you eat.

 

1. Have as much variety as possible, see what they like. Steamed, fried, or baked. Salad.  Mixed. Have them help you prepare the meal, wash the vegetables or cut them, etc. Whatever works.

 

2. While making sure they receive a sufficient amount of calories, reduce sugar/sweet as much as possible. If a kid is having a massive amount of sugar via sugar covered breakfast or bread, veggies would taste like crap.

 

3. A general tip:  one can have great nutritional food for kids without any cooking, e.g. some nuts, egg with salt on it, gouda cheese, a tablespoon of peanut butter.  Takes a second to prepare.

 

I hope Eric starts a thread about being a Vegan, under Strategies.

 

I agree with many of these above things pointed out.

 

1) One thing we did is have our son eat the same food we eat from a very your age (~1 year old). First mixed in and starting from year 2, he pretty much ate what we ate. Even in restaurants, we rarely ordered kids means, but rather have him eat some of thrthe adult food, sometimes diluted down if it was spicy.

 

2) While we aren’t health nuts, certain things like coke/soda or other sugary drinks were never in our house. He could try to when he was at a birthday sorry with other kids but ended up not really being thet fond about it. Same with sugary stuff.

 

3) we always had precut apple slices, strawberries , raspberries around as snack. When our son wanted something. In between meals, that’s what he got.

 

4) My wife involved my son in cooking activities early on, starting with age 2. He learned how to prep food, salads and add the condiments he liked (feta cheese, olives , sautéed onions or whatever the preferred flavor at thet time as) and could to some extend create his own means, like when we amd homemade pizza, he could put the stuff he liked on it (sometime weird combinations but so be it). I think eating your one cooking really helps.

 

5) replace salty snacks with nuts, trail mix etc. Very easy.

 

 

Again, my sample size is small (n=1) and what works for one kid, may not work for another, but the above (or some variation of it) might work in your case too. The earlier you start, the easier it is from our experience.

[ERICOPOLY]

I'm watching last night's ABC news on Hulu.  This fear over a pork shortage due to covid-19 is such a non-crisis.  The best thing that could probably happen to the US health is to cut meat consumption down by 80%, even 100%.  It's alarming that Trump used an executive order to keep meat packing plants open, so unnecessary.

 

Trigger alert!

 

Doctors hate this trick! I cut my net carbs down to 20 grams/day and all a sudden i lose 40-45lbs in a 16 month period.  I didn't even exercise much.  My diet is a little heavy on bacon and eggs at the moment. 

 

(Eric, to each his/her own.  Keto is the way that I keep the weight off.  Please play along with this faux meat vs Vegan drama that I am creating.)

 

Going whole foods plant-based would get you the same weight loss while also reversing cardiovascular disease, which you are not getting on the all-meat diet. 

 

If weight loss were the only goal I'd rather eat the bacon and eggs like you.  But just remember, the arteries that feed your erections are much smaller than the coronary arteries, so guess what's gonna go first.

[rb]

I'm watching last night's ABC news on Hulu.  This fear over a pork shortage due to covid-19 is such a non-crisis.  The best thing that could probably happen to the US health is to cut meat consumption down by 80%, even 100%.  It's alarming that Trump used an executive order to keep meat packing plants open, so unnecessary.

 

Trigger alert!

 

Doctors hate this trick! I cut my net carbs down to 20 grams/day and all a sudden i lose 40-45lbs in a 16 month period.  I didn't even exercise much.  My diet is a little heavy on bacon and eggs at the moment. 

 

(Eric, to each his/her own.  Keto is the way that I keep the weight off.  Please play along with this faux meat vs Vegan drama that I am creating.)

 

Going whole foods plant-based would get you the same weight loss while also reversing cardiovascular disease, which you are not getting on the all-meat diet. 

 

If weight loss were the only goal I'd rather eat the bacon and eggs like you.  But just remember, the arteries that feed your erections are much smaller than the coronary arteries, so guess what's gonna go first.

APPLAUSE!!!

[BG2008]

I'm watching last night's ABC news on Hulu.  This fear over a pork shortage due to covid-19 is such a non-crisis.  The best thing that could probably happen to the US health is to cut meat consumption down by 80%, even 100%.  It's alarming that Trump used an executive order to keep meat packing plants open, so unnecessary.

 

Trigger alert!

 

Doctors hate this trick! I cut my net carbs down to 20 grams/day and all a sudden i lose 40-45lbs in a 16 month period.  I didn't even exercise much.  My diet is a little heavy on bacon and eggs at the moment. 

 

(Eric, to each his/her own.  Keto is the way that I keep the weight off.  Please play along with this faux meat vs Vegan drama that I am creating.)

 

Going whole foods plant-based would get you the same weight loss while also reversing cardiovascular disease, which you are not getting on the all-meat diet. 

 

If weight loss were the only goal I'd rather eat the bacon and eggs like you.  But just remember, the arteries that feed your erections are much smaller than the coronary arteries, so guess what's gonna go first.

 

I don't think my blood work has ever been so good.  Thank you for thinking of my junk.  I think going whole foods plant-based would get me depressed.  Just can't imagine skipping meat, cheese, and seafood.  Honestly, I wish I can do a Vegan diet. I doubt my body is built for that.  But then I said the same thing about carbs and now I feel much better on a higher fat diet.   

 

#All_Out_Keto_Vs_Vegan_War (Joking)

 

 

[meiroy]

I'm watching last night's ABC news on Hulu.  This fear over a pork shortage due to covid-19 is such a non-crisis.  The best thing that could probably happen to the US health is to cut meat consumption down by 80%, even 100%.  It's alarming that Trump used an executive order to keep meat packing plants open, so unnecessary.

 

Trigger alert!

 

Doctors hate this trick! I cut my net carbs down to 20 grams/day and all a sudden i lose 40-45lbs in a 16 month period.  I didn't even exercise much.  My diet is a little heavy on bacon and eggs at the moment. 

 

(Eric, to each his/her own.  Keto is the way that I keep the weight off.  Please play along with this faux meat vs Vegan drama that I am creating.)

 

Going whole foods plant-based would get you the same weight loss while also reversing cardiovascular disease, which you are not getting on the all-meat diet. 

 

If weight loss were the only goal I'd rather eat the bacon and eggs like you.  But just remember, the arteries that feed your erections are much smaller than the coronary arteries, so guess what's gonna go first.

 

I don't think my blood work has ever been so good.  Thank you for thinking of my junk.  I think going whole foods plant-based would get me depressed.  Just can't imagine skipping meat, cheese, and seafood.  Honestly, I wish I can do a Vegan diet. I doubt my body is built for that.  But then I said the same thing about carbs and now I feel much better on a higher fat diet.   

 

#All_Out_Keto_Vs_Vegan_War (Joking)

 

 

 

About the cheese, a real somewhat-aged dutch Gouda cheese has vitamin k2 which assists in removing calcium from your blood vessels.  It's either that or eating Natto... Also, real grass-fed butter has vitamin k2.

 

I've considered going vegetarian but the concern is about lacking certain nutrients, like Creatine and all these other things which we might have no clue about and you can't even blood test for.

 

 

 

[ERICOPOLY]

I'm watching last night's ABC news on Hulu.  This fear over a pork shortage due to covid-19 is such a non-crisis.  The best thing that could probably happen to the US health is to cut meat consumption down by 80%, even 100%.  It's alarming that Trump used an executive order to keep meat packing plants open, so unnecessary.

 

Trigger alert!

 

Doctors hate this trick! I cut my net carbs down to 20 grams/day and all a sudden i lose 40-45lbs in a 16 month period.  I didn't even exercise much.  My diet is a little heavy on bacon and eggs at the moment. 

 

(Eric, to each his/her own.  Keto is the way that I keep the weight off.  Please play along with this faux meat vs Vegan drama that I am creating.)

 

Going whole foods plant-based would get you the same weight loss while also reversing cardiovascular disease, which you are not getting on the all-meat diet. 

 

If weight loss were the only goal I'd rather eat the bacon and eggs like you.  But just remember, the arteries that feed your erections are much smaller than the coronary arteries, so guess what's gonna go first.

 

I don't think my blood work has ever been so good.  Thank you for thinking of my junk.  I think going whole foods plant-based would get me depressed.  Just can't imagine skipping meat, cheese, and seafood.  Honestly, I wish I can do a Vegan diet. I doubt my body is built for that.  But then I said the same thing about carbs and now I feel much better on a higher fat diet.   

 

#All_Out_Keto_Vs_Vegan_War (Joking)

 

 

 

The blood work is not measuring the problem if you are talking about blood lipids:

 

https://www.clevelandheartlab.com/blog/the-gut-the-heart-and-tmao/

 

https://www.health.harvard.edu/staying-healthy/red-meat-tmao-and-your-heart

[BG2008]

I'm watching last night's ABC news on Hulu.  This fear over a pork shortage due to covid-19 is such a non-crisis.  The best thing that could probably happen to the US health is to cut meat consumption down by 80%, even 100%.  It's alarming that Trump used an executive order to keep meat packing plants open, so unnecessary.

 

Trigger alert!

 

Doctors hate this trick! I cut my net carbs down to 20 grams/day and all a sudden i lose 40-45lbs in a 16 month period.  I didn't even exercise much.  My diet is a little heavy on bacon and eggs at the moment. 

 

(Eric, to each his/her own.  Keto is the way that I keep the weight off.  Please play along with this faux meat vs Vegan drama that I am creating.)

 

Going whole foods plant-based would get you the same weight loss while also reversing cardiovascular disease, which you are not getting on the all-meat diet. 

 

If weight loss were the only goal I'd rather eat the bacon and eggs like you.  But just remember, the arteries that feed your erections are much smaller than the coronary arteries, so guess what's gonna go first.

 

I don't think my blood work has ever been so good.  Thank you for thinking of my junk.  I think going whole foods plant-based would get me depressed.  Just can't imagine skipping meat, cheese, and seafood.  Honestly, I wish I can do a Vegan diet. I doubt my body is built for that.  But then I said the same thing about carbs and now I feel much better on a higher fat diet.   

 

#All_Out_Keto_Vs_Vegan_War (Joking)

 

 

 

The blood work is not measuring the problem if you are talking about blood lipids:

 

https://www.clevelandheartlab.com/blog/the-gut-the-heart-and-tmao/

 

https://www.health.harvard.edu/staying-healthy/red-meat-tmao-and-your-heart

 

Eric,

 

I don't know what to think of new scientific studies on diets anymore.  For years we were told to eat 10+ servings of carbs a day.  It didn't even distinguish between refined carbs or whole grain.  Eggs were bad, eggs were good, fat was bad, fat is good.  I now try to think about a world without agriculture and what would human being eat then?  I assume that we are naturally omnivores.  We probably ate meat, fish, berries, and some sort of veggies.  Despite thousands of years of civilization, I don't think human metabolism has evolved much.  This is largely due to the fact that humans are very good at surviving and we haven't needed dramatic mutations in our genes to survive in the last 10,000 years or so.   

 

The joke is that "You're not really on a Keto diet, unless you tell people."  I guess the same goes for people on a vegan diet "You're not truly Vegan, unless you tell people."  I am self aware that I am annoying to a fault with my going on and on about Keto. 

 

If red meat causes cancer and limp dick, I guess I'll take my chances.  As I get older, my desire for red meat will likely go down and I'll focus on fish and veggie fats such as avocado etc.  To each their own.  Let's just eat what makes us happy and allow us to believe our own dietary religions.     

[Jurgis]

I now try to think about a world without agriculture and what would human being eat then?  I assume that we are naturally omnivores.  We probably ate meat, fish, berries, and some sort of veggies.  Despite thousands of years of civilization, I don't think human metabolism has evolved much.  This is largely due to the fact that humans are very good at surviving and we haven't needed dramatic mutations in our genes to survive in the last 10,000 years or so.   

 

This line of thinking forgets that pre-agricultural people did not live to 70 or 80 years old. So you don't really know whether pre-agri diet was good or not. You don't know which parts of the omnivorous diet were good ones and which ones were not. You know that pre-agri people mostly did not die from food problems, but that actually hurts your reasoning and does not help it.

 

Throwing genes into the discussion muddies the waters even more. I'm pretty sure nobody in this thread actually knows how genes interact with diet and again which components of the diet (and genes) are geared to make humans survive to 20-40 years in food-deficient society vs. which parts are good for living to 90-100+ in food-excess society.

 

BTW, I am not sure where you are going with this too. I'm pretty sure pre-agri people did not eat Keto diet. So are you now arguing that some kind of balanced omnivore (paleo?) diet (whatever that is) - is the best?

 

I am (not very strict) vegetarian. I acknowledge that it's possibly not the best diet. In fact, as vegetarian you are limited, which makes it harder to avoid "bad foods". But then I am vegetarian based on ethical reasons - not killing animals without necessity - and not because of health reasons. (If anyone is going to pursue this line of discussion, please open a new thread in politics, TYVM).

 

I don't know what to think of new scientific studies on diets anymore.  For years we were told to eat 10+ servings of carbs a day.  It didn't even distinguish between refined carbs or whole grain.  Eggs were bad, eggs were good, fat was bad, fat is good.

 

I think this line of non-thinking is not productive. The actual studies are way more nuanced than you try to portray them. I am not sure how many have you read and if you have expertise in the topic. (I don't.)

Sorry, but you sound like a Robinhood investor who would say: "I don't know what to think about investing studies anymore. For years we were told that low P/Book is good. It did not even distinguish between p/book of banks and software companies. Dividends were bad, dividends were good, share repurchases were good, share repurchases were bad. This investing science is all crap". (Last sentence added for emphasis ;)).

 

[LC]

This line of thinking forgets that pre-agricultural people did not live to 70 or 80 years old. So you don't really know whether pre-agri diet was good or not. You don't know which parts of the omnivorous diet were good ones and which ones were not. You know that pre-agri people mostly did not die from food problems, but that actually hurts your reasoning and does not help it.

 

Pre-civilized humanity was pretty interesting in terms of life expectancy. It was essentially a tri-modal distribution: lots of deaths around birth/infancy, around 25-30 (usually dying of tooth infections), and the remainder actually living into their late years (50s, 60s, 70s).

[ERICOPOLY]

I'm watching last night's ABC news on Hulu.  This fear over a pork shortage due to covid-19 is such a non-crisis.  The best thing that could probably happen to the US health is to cut meat consumption down by 80%, even 100%.  It's alarming that Trump used an executive order to keep meat packing plants open, so unnecessary.

 

Trigger alert!

 

Doctors hate this trick! I cut my net carbs down to 20 grams/day and all a sudden i lose 40-45lbs in a 16 month period.  I didn't even exercise much.  My diet is a little heavy on bacon and eggs at the moment. 

 

(Eric, to each his/her own.  Keto is the way that I keep the weight off.  Please play along with this faux meat vs Vegan drama that I am creating.)

 

Going whole foods plant-based would get you the same weight loss while also reversing cardiovascular disease, which you are not getting on the all-meat diet. 

 

If weight loss were the only goal I'd rather eat the bacon and eggs like you.  But just remember, the arteries that feed your erections are much smaller than the coronary arteries, so guess what's gonna go first.

 

I don't think my blood work has ever been so good.  Thank you for thinking of my junk.  I think going whole foods plant-based would get me depressed.  Just can't imagine skipping meat, cheese, and seafood.  Honestly, I wish I can do a Vegan diet. I doubt my body is built for that.  But then I said the same thing about carbs and now I feel much better on a higher fat diet.   

 

#All_Out_Keto_Vs_Vegan_War (Joking)

 

 

 

The blood work is not measuring the problem if you are talking about blood lipids:

 

https://www.clevelandheartlab.com/blog/the-gut-the-heart-and-tmao/

 

https://www.health.harvard.edu/staying-healthy/red-meat-tmao-and-your-heart

 

Eric,

 

I don't know what to think of new scientific studies on diets anymore.  For years we were told to eat 10+ servings of carbs a day.  It didn't even distinguish between refined carbs or whole grain.  Eggs were bad, eggs were good, fat was bad, fat is good.  I now try to think about a world without agriculture and what would human being eat then?  I assume that we are naturally omnivores.  We probably ate meat, fish, berries, and some sort of veggies.  Despite thousands of years of civilization, I don't think human metabolism has evolved much.  This is largely due to the fact that humans are very good at surviving and we haven't needed dramatic mutations in our genes to survive in the last 10,000 years or so.   

 

The joke is that "You're not really on a Keto diet, unless you tell people."  I guess the same goes for people on a vegan diet "You're not truly Vegan, unless you tell people."  I am self aware that I am annoying to a fault with my going on and on about Keto. 

 

If red meat causes cancer and limp dick, I guess I'll take my chances.  As I get older, my desire for red meat will likely go down and I'll focus on fish and veggie fats such as avocado etc.  To each their own.  Let's just eat what makes us happy and allow us to believe our own dietary religions.   

 

There has long been a link between red meat and cardiovascular disease.  Being right for the wrong reason for a long time does not make them wrong about the danger of red meat, although now it's a "boy who cried wolf" situation where people have stopped listening because the explanation wasn't correct the first time and now it's changed with new discoveries and deeper understanding. 

 

Think of how frustrated people are about listening to scientists about wearing masks, when earlier this year they were told that masks don't help.

 

Somewhere around the 19 minute mark, one of the Cleveland Clinic doctors shows the results of his patients with reversal of cardiovascular disease:

 

 

[Jurgis]

This line of thinking forgets that pre-agricultural people did not live to 70 or 80 years old. So you don't really know whether pre-agri diet was good or not. You don't know which parts of the omnivorous diet were good ones and which ones were not. You know that pre-agri people mostly did not die from food problems, but that actually hurts your reasoning and does not help it.

 

Pre-civilized humanity was pretty interesting in terms of life expectancy. It was essentially a tri-modal distribution: lots of deaths around birth/infancy, around 25-30 (usually dying of tooth infections), and the remainder actually living into their late years (50s, 60s, 70s).

 

Sources?  8)

 

Edit: I just Googled for 5 minutes and the picture is not really what you present. Even from the people who acknowledge huge number of infant deaths dragging down the averages:

https://www.ancient-origins.net/news-evolution-human-origins/life-expectancy-myth-and-why-many-ancient-humans-lived-long-077889

http://johnhawks.net/weblog/reviews/life_history/age-specific-mortality-lifespan-bad-science-2009.html

https://jasoncollins.blog/2013/10/21/life-expectancy-and-the-dawn-of-agriculture/

http://sticerd.lse.ac.uk/seminarpapers/dg09102006.pdf

 

Edit2: This is IMO pretty definitive:  https://ourworldindata.org/life-expectancy  but does not cover pre-middle-ages. So FWIW.