BB - BlackBerry

[Liberty]

Share price dropped 50% didn't bother me; naysayers didn't bother me; Android and iOS dominating didn't bother me.

 

This bothers me like hell:

 

http://www.bgr.com/2012/08/21/blackberry-enterprise-server-blackberry-10/

 

:o

[Guest rimm_never_sleeps]

i think yo have to value that business as if it's in runoff.

[Guest valueInv]

 

I'm saying that AT&T and VZ will want to compete with GOOG, AMZN, MSFT, Rackspace, LVLT, AAPL (if they actually have their own data centers and cloud infrastructure going forward) for the provisioning of cloud infrastructure services. 

 

As to whether the carriers can run datacenters more cost effectively, that is a good question.  But that's what they're trying to do.  Why do you think VZ bought Terremark?

Best of luck with that. I don't think even Apple can run data centers as efficiently as Google or Amazon, let alone VZ/Terremark.

If I remember correctly, the carriers tried to enter the data center hosting businesses and bought a bunch of companies in the early 2000s. What happened to that?

 

 

I never said that Aepona would require support of RIM.  And I understand that they provide API services.  What I said above was not meant to indicate that Aepona itself is a "cloud" services provider -- those would be its customers.  It's notable that Aepona is trying to sell its wares to "cloud" service providers, which includes MSOs, MNOs, telcos, etc.

 

 

Isn't that the point you were trying to make? That operators would favor RIM because they could use BB10 to sell new cloud services that will prevent them from becoming a dumb pipe? If services from the likes of Aepona don't require RIM, it nukes that theory doesn't it?

 

 

Again, you misunderstand.  The AT&T product manager or someone in charge of strategy at AT&T would say, hey, how do we get more use of our synaptics products?  We want to grow our utility service to compete with the likes of Rackspace, AMZN, etc.  See, e.g., http://www.business.att.com/enterprise/Portfolio/cloud/ .

 

The point I am trying to make is that if device isn't going to get any traction, there's little point in investing in building new services around it.

Synaptics is a sunk cost. 

 

No idea about this.  But somehow I suspect these behemoths are not talking strategy with your company.  I could be wrong, though.

 

Look, all the services and the products you see carriers offer are "created" by deploying and configuring boxes like ours, Cisco's,etc. Without the boxes, operators are just dead airwaves and fiber. Much of operators' "strategy" is driven behind the scenes by vendors. 

 

You are wrong about operators not talking strategy with us. I personally have seen many strategy slides and roadmaps for operators across the world. What I am telling you is that I have not seen any big move by mobile operators across the world into cloud services. CDN services - yes, payments - yes, M2M - yes. Cloud - no. That doesn't mean that divisions within the operator might not do a little bit of cloud handwaving. 

[zarley]

Share price dropped 50% didn't bother me; naysayers didn't bother me; Android and iOS dominating didn't bother me.

 

This bothers me like hell:

 

http://www.bgr.com/2012/08/21/blackberry-enterprise-server-blackberry-10/

 

Wow.  New phones not compatible with older servers; old phones not compatible with new servers, ouch.  If true, that's really bad.  Would an enterprise set up two blackberry servers for new hardware and legacy hardware? 

[rmitz]

Share price dropped 50% didn't bother me; naysayers didn't bother me; Android and iOS dominating didn't bother me.

 

This bothers me like hell:

 

http://www.bgr.com/2012/08/21/blackberry-enterprise-server-blackberry-10/

 

Wow.  New phones not compatible with older servers; old phones not compatible with new servers, ouch.  If true, that's really bad.  Would an enterprise set up two blackberry servers for new hardware and legacy hardware?

 

They would have in the heyday of blackberry, but now I would doubt it.

[Guest rimm_never_sleeps]

when CIOs hear about this from rimm salespeople, it will make them pause. they've been thinking of ways to transition away from rimm product ever since iphone ipad made such a big impression on employees. they've been fighting the switch. now CIO has an excuse handed to him by rimm because there is a disontinuity in the service. CIO now has "cover" to make a shift away from BB. The time is right. The enterprise server is changing. the phone OS is changing. People don't need hard keyboards anymore. Lots of CIOs will think twice about betting their reputations on this technology shift and on Rimm execution. Especially because there are proven technologies from Google Apple and Microsoft to move to.

[PlanMaestro]

No backward or forward compatibility? Are they looking for ways to screw their fighting chance?  This is rapidly becoming an IBM 360 moment so they better execute to perfection. A couple of articles on how carriers are falling into this story:

 

RIM's First Test: A Preview With Carriers

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10000872396390444318104577589682438154486.html

 

BlackBerry 10′s most powerful allies: iPhone hating carriers

http://www.cantechletter.com/2012/08/blackberry-10s-most-powerful-ally-iphone-hating-carriers/

[portfolio14]

Share price dropped 50% didn't bother me; naysayers didn't bother me; Android and iOS dominating didn't bother me.

 

This bothers me like hell:

 

http://www.bgr.com/2012/08/21/blackberry-enterprise-server-blackberry-10/

 

Update:

 

http://www.zdnet.com/rim-blackberry-enterprise-server-will-support-all-devices-we-goofed-7000003019/

[txlaw]

 

I'm saying that AT&T and VZ will want to compete with GOOG, AMZN, MSFT, Rackspace, LVLT, AAPL (if they actually have their own data centers and cloud infrastructure going forward) for the provisioning of cloud infrastructure services. 

 

As to whether the carriers can run datacenters more cost effectively, that is a good question.  But that's what they're trying to do.  Why do you think VZ bought Terremark?

Best of luck with that. I don't think even Apple can run data centers as efficiently as Google or Amazon, let alone VZ/Terremark.

If I remember correctly, the carriers tried to enter the data center hosting businesses and bought a bunch of companies in the early 2000s. What happened to that?

 

I don't think that betting against the carriers is necessarily a good bet.  Terremark, in particular, competes not just with GOOG or AMZN but also Rackspace, Savvis, and all sorts of other providers worldwide.  And there are different types of customers that each of these guys serve.  Not everyone wants to put their stuff onto GOOG or AMZN's infrastructure.  Businesses use different vendors for different purposes.

 

As for efficiency, don't be surprised if the differences between vendors in efficiency becomes smaller.  Didn't you yourself post about the OpenCompute project on the DELL thread?

 

 

I never said that Aepona would require support of RIM.  And I understand that they provide API services.  What I said above was not meant to indicate that Aepona itself is a "cloud" services provider -- those would be its customers.  It's notable that Aepona is trying to sell its wares to "cloud" service providers, which includes MSOs, MNOs, telcos, etc.

 

 

Isn't that the point you were trying to make? That operators would favor RIM because they could use BB10 to sell new cloud services that will prevent them from becoming a dumb pipe? If services from the likes of Aepona don't require RIM, it nukes that theory doesn't it?

 

Actually, my point about Aepona -- which you brought up in the first place -- was that it doesn't at all disprove the notion that carriers are trying to get into cloud infrastructure services.  The opposite is proved, which you seem to acknowledge now.

 

I never connected Aepona's services to adoption of BB10. 

 

 

Again, you misunderstand.  The AT&T product manager or someone in charge of strategy at AT&T would say, hey, how do we get more use of our synaptics products?  We want to grow our utility service to compete with the likes of Rackspace, AMZN, etc.  See, e.g., http://www.business.att.com/enterprise/Portfolio/cloud/ .

 

The point I am trying to make is that if device isn't going to get any traction, there's little point in investing in building new services around it.

Synaptics is a sunk cost. 

 

Yes, but what I'm saying is that you have it backwards.  The infrastructure services these guys are building aren't being built around BB10.  BB10 is going to be built around those infrastructure services. 

 

That is, the cloud infrastructure services are going to be built regardless and AT&T and VZ want to drive traffic to them.  They want to steal market share from Rackspace, Savvis, AMZN, and GOOG.  If RIM partners with the carriers to drive the use of their infrastructure, then the carriers could potentially support BB10.

 

And let's not forget that BB10 is built on QNX.  All sorts of devices could be set up with QNX so that they are driving use of carrier infrastructure (both communications infrastructure and cloud computing/storage infrastructure).

 

No idea about this.  But somehow I suspect these behemoths are not talking strategy with your company.  I could be wrong, though.

 

Look, all the services and the products you see carriers offer are "created" by deploying and configuring boxes like ours, Cisco's,etc. Without the boxes, operators are just dead airwaves and fiber. Much of operators' "strategy" is driven behind the scenes by vendors. 

 

You are wrong about operators not talking strategy with us. I personally have seen many strategy slides and roadmaps for operators across the world. What I am telling you is that I have not seen any big move by mobile operators across the world into cloud services. CDN services - yes, payments - yes, M2M - yes. Cloud - no. That doesn't mean that divisions within the operator might not do a little bit of cloud handwaving.

 

But you keep talking about mobile network operators.  I, on the other hand, am talking about these holding companies that own wireline businesses, MNOs, data center businesses, and who are partnering with other "carriers" and MSOs.  I'm saying that Verizon (as opposed to Verizon Wireless) or AT&T (as opposed to AT&T Wireless) may not be the guys that showed up at these meetings you describe.

 

I'm not talking simply about MNOs.  I thought we cleared that up when you said I was confused about MNOs versus carriers.

[txlaw]

Share price dropped 50% didn't bother me; naysayers didn't bother me; Android and iOS dominating didn't bother me.

 

This bothers me like hell:

 

http://www.bgr.com/2012/08/21/blackberry-enterprise-server-blackberry-10/

 

Update:

 

http://www.zdnet.com/rim-blackberry-enterprise-server-will-support-all-devices-we-goofed-7000003019/

 

Misinformation on RIM?  Shocking!

[portfolio14]

Misinformation on RIM?  Shocking!

 

Shocking? Yes.

Surprised? No.

 

Given my observations over the past 6 months, RIM is in the habit of mis-communicating.

 

Case in point: when they demo'd BB10 about 2 months ago, they gave everyone the impression they would abandon the physical keyboard completely. That's suicidal in my book. The issue only got cleaned up after commentators asked for clarification.

[Guest rimm_never_sleeps]

original post was indeed correct.

 

http://www.bgr.com/2012/08/22/bes-10-blackberry-7-support/

[tengen]

original post was indeed correct.

 

http://www.bgr.com/2012/08/22/bes-10-blackberry-7-support/

 

I'm not sure whether to laugh or just feel sad.

[AZ_Value]

Just like everybody else I've been following the RIMM situation pretty closely for a while now, no dog in this fight, just using it as a real life case study of what happens in business.

 

All rational observers would agree that since the QNX acquisition, RIMM has done nothing more than make promises about the next thing that would help them turn the situation around. And so far they haven't even been able to get their release date right.

 

So I really don't mind if a case is made based on their assets (patents), their cash etc. and the fact that RIMM has dropped so much that it's selling below liquidation value. I can go with that.

 

But saying that BB10 will do this or that is nothing but a gamble to me. It wouldn't even matter if Prem Watsa himself who now sits on the board came and told me of the super qualities of a QNX based BB10 platform.

Even if it might work out and this turns out to be the Iphone killer, it's still nothing more than a gamble if that's what one bases his thesis on.

 

 

[txlaw]

So I really don't mind if a case is made based on their assets (patents), their cash etc. and the fact that RIMM has dropped so much that it's selling below liquidation value. I can go with that.

 

But saying that BB10 will do this or that is nothing but a gamble to me. It wouldn't even matter to me if Prem Watsa himself who now sits on the board came and told me of the super qualities of a QNX based BB10 platform.

Even if it might work out and this turns out to be the Iphone killer, it's still nothing more than a gamble to me if that's what one bases his thesis on.

 

I agree.  Best to conservatively assume that BB10 will be DOA when valuing RIM.

 

But it makes sense to try to understand what RIM is attempting with BB10 because clearly the value of that asset will be determined by what they can do going forward.  It always makes sense to try to figure out what additional potential upside is in case things go right. 

 

Same approach would be true for a SHLD or JCP or any other scenario where the MOS comes from liquidation/runoff value.

 

 

[txlaw]

original post was indeed correct.

 

http://www.bgr.com/2012/08/22/bes-10-blackberry-7-support/

 

No, the original post implied that RIM would kill off the old BES and refuse to support old BB devices. 

 

The reality, I believe, is that any enterprise that keeps old BB devices can run the old BES and/or Mobile Fusion. 

 

On the other hand, if you want to upgrade to BB10 devices (presumably, to gain the benefits of using ActiveSync with Blackberry network security features, and the benefit of the "new" UI), you will need to use the new version of BES.  If you want to use a mix of BB10 and old BB devices, then you will need to run both old BES on your existing server and the new BES on another server or on a VM.

 

Keep in mind that if an enterprise decides to use a mix of BB10, iOS, and Android devices, they will only need to run the new BES.

 

Like I said, misinformation being thrown around.  But people in the IT world should weight in -- would be interested to hear what they have to say.

[Guest rimm_never_sleeps]

the original accurate post never implied that they would kill off old BES. it did imply that it would not get any more major updates. it will still be sold, however. The thesis of the post was that you would need old BES to manage legacy bb devices. that is true. you will need two pieces of software if you want to support bb10 and legacy devices.

 

it's a cluster F no matter how you want to spin it. it's yet another data point that this company is dysfunctional and doesn't have the people in place to bring out products. bb10 is no asset. it's probably a liability given how much money they are pouring into an asset that will never deliver fcf. I predict it goes the way of palm OS.

 

if you can find me a company that will have bb10 devices and no legacy bb devices I would like to award them a blue ribbon for being a "one of kind" institution.

[Guest valueInv]

original post was indeed correct.

 

http://www.bgr.com/2012/08/22/bes-10-blackberry-7-support/

 

No, the original post implied that RIM would kill off the old BES and refuse to support old BB devices. 

 

The reality, I believe, is that any enterprise that keeps old BB devices can run the old BES and/or Mobile Fusion. 

 

On the other hand, if you want to upgrade to BB10 devices (presumably, to gain the benefits of using ActiveSync with Blackberry network security features, and the benefit of the "new" UI), you will need to use the new version of BES.  If you want to use a mix of BB10 and old BB devices, then you will need to run both old BES on your existing server and the new BES on another server or on a VM.

 

Keep in mind that if an enterprise decides to use a mix of BB10, iOS, and Android devices, they will only need to run the new BES.

 

Like I said, misinformation being thrown around.  But people in the IT world should weight in -- would be interested to hear what they have to say.

 

What exactly does the new BES do for Android and IOS devices? What does "manage" entail?

[txlaw]

the original accurate post never implied that they would kill off old BES. it did imply that it would not get any more major updates. it will still be sold, however. The thesis of the post was that you would need old BES to manage legacy bb devices. that is true. you will need two pieces of software if you want to support bb10 and legacy devices.

 

it's a cluster F no matter how you want to spin it. it's yet another data point that this company is dysfunctional and doesn't have the people in place to bring out products. bb10 is no asset. it's probably a liability given how much money they are pouring into an asset that will never deliver fcf. I predict it goes the way of palm OS.

 

if you can find me a company that will have bb10 devices and no legacy bb devices I would like to award them a blue ribbon for being a "one of kind" institution.

 

The spin was on the part of the media and, in particular, BGR.

 

See http://blogs.cio.com/blackberry/17344/clearing-bes-10-confusion

[txlaw]

original post was indeed correct.

 

http://www.bgr.com/2012/08/22/bes-10-blackberry-7-support/

 

No, the original post implied that RIM would kill off the old BES and refuse to support old BB devices. 

 

The reality, I believe, is that any enterprise that keeps old BB devices can run the old BES and/or Mobile Fusion. 

 

On the other hand, if you want to upgrade to BB10 devices (presumably, to gain the benefits of using ActiveSync with Blackberry network security features, and the benefit of the "new" UI), you will need to use the new version of BES.  If you want to use a mix of BB10 and old BB devices, then you will need to run both old BES on your existing server and the new BES on another server or on a VM.

 

Keep in mind that if an enterprise decides to use a mix of BB10, iOS, and Android devices, they will only need to run the new BES.

 

Like I said, misinformation being thrown around.  But people in the IT world should weight in -- would be interested to hear what they have to say.

 

What exactly does the new BES do for Android and IOS devices? What does "manage" entail?

 

BES 10 will incorporate Mobile Fusion.

 

Mobile Fusion is RIM's mobile device management (MDM) software.  See http://ca.blackberry.com/business/software/blackberry-mobile-fusion.html

 

Don't have time to explain MDM software at the moment, but Google searches will lead you to the right info.

[Guest valueInv]

original post was indeed correct.

 

http://www.bgr.com/2012/08/22/bes-10-blackberry-7-support/

 

No, the original post implied that RIM would kill off the old BES and refuse to support old BB devices. 

 

The reality, I believe, is that any enterprise that keeps old BB devices can run the old BES and/or Mobile Fusion. 

 

On the other hand, if you want to upgrade to BB10 devices (presumably, to gain the benefits of using ActiveSync with Blackberry network security features, and the benefit of the "new" UI), you will need to use the new version of BES.  If you want to use a mix of BB10 and old BB devices, then you will need to run both old BES on your existing server and the new BES on another server or on a VM.

 

Keep in mind that if an enterprise decides to use a mix of BB10, iOS, and Android devices, they will only need to run the new BES.

 

Like I said, misinformation being thrown around.  But people in the IT world should weight in -- would be interested to hear what they have to say.

 

What exactly does the new BES do for Android and IOS devices? What does "manage" entail?

 

BES 10 will incorporate Mobile Fusion.

 

Mobile Fusion is RIM's mobile device management (MDM) software.  See http://ca.blackberry.com/business/software/blackberry-mobile-fusion.html

 

Don't have time to explain MDM software at the moment, but Google searches will lead you to the right info.

 

You mean like these guys:

Zenprise

MobileIorn

Good

Sybase

Airwatch

Aruba

And many others

 

Also  Meraki is offering it for free. Very overcrowded space with the other guys having a headstart for IOS and Android.

[Guest rimm_never_sleeps]

"A report published yesterday on BGR.com caused a lot of confusion around BlackBerry 10 and BES 10, and I've received a number of questions from readers asking me if the report is accurate. It is, but it's also misleading. It's misleading because it suggests the BES/BlackBerry 10 incompatibility issue is something new. Again, it's not."

 

 

there was nothing inaccurate about the brg post. the anger comes because this particular piece of bad news was "rehashed".  rimm thought they had survived the original pr hit without a "bruise".

[txlaw]

original post was indeed correct.

 

http://www.bgr.com/2012/08/22/bes-10-blackberry-7-support/

 

No, the original post implied that RIM would kill off the old BES and refuse to support old BB devices. 

 

The reality, I believe, is that any enterprise that keeps old BB devices can run the old BES and/or Mobile Fusion. 

 

On the other hand, if you want to upgrade to BB10 devices (presumably, to gain the benefits of using ActiveSync with Blackberry network security features, and the benefit of the "new" UI), you will need to use the new version of BES.  If you want to use a mix of BB10 and old BB devices, then you will need to run both old BES on your existing server and the new BES on another server or on a VM.

 

Keep in mind that if an enterprise decides to use a mix of BB10, iOS, and Android devices, they will only need to run the new BES.

 

Like I said, misinformation being thrown around.  But people in the IT world should weight in -- would be interested to hear what they have to say.

 

What exactly does the new BES do for Android and IOS devices? What does "manage" entail?

 

BES 10 will incorporate Mobile Fusion.

 

Mobile Fusion is RIM's mobile device management (MDM) software.  See http://ca.blackberry.com/business/software/blackberry-mobile-fusion.html

 

Don't have time to explain MDM software at the moment, but Google searches will lead you to the right info.

 

You mean like these guys:

Zenprise

MobileIorn

Good

Sybase

Airwatch

Aruba

And many others

 

Also  Meraki is offering it for free. Very overcrowded space with the other guys having a headstart for IOS and Android.

 

I take it your question wasn't really a question? ;)

 

Yes, there are lot of folks in the MDM space.  No doubt about it. 

[txlaw]

"A report published yesterday on BGR.com caused a lot of confusion around BlackBerry 10 and BES 10, and I've received a number of questions from readers asking me if the report is accurate. It is, but it's also misleading. It's misleading because it suggests the BES/BlackBerry 10 incompatibility issue is something new. Again, it's not."

 

there was nothing inaccurate about the brg post. the anger comes because this particular piece of bad news was "rehashed".  rimm thought they had survived the original pr hit without a "bruise".

 

My point was that the BGR post was misleading.  Hence the notion that there was misinformation flying around. 

 

It isn't just that the guy's trying to pass this "news" off as an "exclusive."  Take a look at these parts of BGR's post:

 

Well… we have confirmed that this new BlackBerry Enterprise Server won’t support java-based BlackBerry smartphones like BlackBerry 7 devices, and we have also confirmed that in order for a corporation to support both devices, they will need to run both servers simultaneously.

 

For mid-sized and large corporations, this could be a potential nightmare down the road.

 

There is no basis to say that this could be a potential nightmare down the road.  As the CIO article points out, "BES 10 will serve as a central management console to allow enterprise to manage all BlackBerry devices, and even iOS and Android devices thanks to Mobile Fusion, via a single interface." 

 

True, companies will have to keep running the old BES on a separate server in order to keep the old BB devices running on the network.  But this is only an issue if a company wants to support both old BB devices and new BB10 devices.  And even if they do want to continue to use old BB devices (which I'm sure you and ValueInv contend nobody wants to do), it wouldn't be a nightmare to have two servers running while you transition old BB devices out of the company.  If you really care about utilizing RIM's security infrastructure, you're gonna set up the two servers.  Otherwise, you're probably just going to be migrating away from BB entirely.

 

Additionally, let’s not forget that the new BlackBerry Enterprise Server still won’t handle the majority of features the older server handles such as emails, contacts and calendars, and will effectively be a secure VPN tunnel from the BES to the device, with the server not doing any work.

 

What exactly is he implying here?  It sounded to me like he was implying that upgrading to BES10 would either mean less secure communications or less functionality -- why else would he write this?  But the RIM post on ActiveSync shows exactly why this is a non-issue.

 

http://bizblog.blackberry.com/2012/08/rim-activesync-security/

 

But look, maybe the BGR guy just made an honest mistake in thinking that he was breaking exclusive news and basing his opinions on this purportedly new news. 

 

I guess I just had a negative gut reaction because of the suspicious timing of the post.  After all, there have been recent reports that IBM has been sniffing around to potentially buy the services/software portion of RIM's business.  This sort of misinformation might lead some people to undervalue that part of the biz.

[txlaw]

Just found an even better explanation here:

http://crackberry.com/clearing-confusion-bes-and-blackberry-10

 

Granted, it's from a site called "Crackberry," but it spells out all the facts very clearly and IMO comes to the right conclusions.