ERICOPOLY Posted October 4, 2011 Share Posted October 4, 2011 I just want you to consider that you aren't making a big deal over lack of insider buying when it comes to BAC, which is perhaps even cheaper if things work out as management seems to claim. You put a lot of weight on the implied meaning of the Buffett investment. Yet no insider buying. Specifically this is what you said: buffett wouldn't put a dime in prf if he didn't think the equity was solid as a rock. he just endorsed moynihan and what he has been telling us. this is a repeat of 1992. he believes moynihan. he doesn't believe Henry Blodgett. member the F Buffett t-shirts the feschback brothers were wearing? they are nowhere now and Buffett has a private hot line to the Oval office. everybody thinks they are smarter than buffett. bulletin. they aren't. he is going to OWN the shorts. again. I have no quarrel with you, I just think you should consider whether the lack of insider buying is really worth all the emphasis you are putting on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ERICOPOLY Posted October 4, 2011 Share Posted October 4, 2011 I just want you to consider that you aren't making a big deal over lack of insider buying when it comes to BAC, which is perhaps even cheaper if things work out as management seems to claim. You put a lot of weight on the implied meaning of the Buffett investment. Yet no insider buying. Specifically this is what you said: buffett wouldn't put a dime in prf if he didn't think the equity was solid as a rock. he just endorsed moynihan and what he has been telling us. this is a repeat of 1992. he believes moynihan. he doesn't believe Henry Blodgett. member the F Buffett t-shirts the feschback brothers were wearing? they are nowhere now and Buffett has a private hot line to the Oval office. everybody thinks they are smarter than buffett. bulletin. they aren't. he is going to OWN the shorts. again. I have no quarrel with you, I just think you should consider whether the lack of insider buying is really worth all the emphasis you are putting on it. rimm management goes out their way to tell investors what they will earn, only to disappoint them. they seem to know what the company will earn. you would think that with so much precision spoon feeding earnings estimates to wall street they would step up and buy at 4.4 times their own estimates. but I don't believe they are bullish on rimm at all. I think they are walking expectations lower, step by step. as for bac, I don't care because they aren't telling wall street what they are going to earn. they aren't arrogant like I believe rimm management to be. I can't tell you why they aren't buying. However I checked with an unreliable source that tells me insiders own 13 million shares. Why aren't they selling? Walking expectations down sounds like something that would provide cover while you sell out. Waiting until it gets to $0 doesn't seem to meet the objectives of insiders with low confidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smazz Posted October 4, 2011 Share Posted October 4, 2011 Looks like you're the only one who believes him buddy boy - stocks down - AGAIN! Nothing like throwing out a bunch of stuff like "90% are testing" ok. talk to us when it actually happens. Until then, Ive got swamp land in Florida you just gotto see BTW, why you bringing up AAPL stuff? When i showed you that RIM insiders were not selling yet AAPL insiders were you wrote "we are not talking about AAPL" in this thread. Do you think there is anyone in this thread you are fooling? I mean the fact that you think you need to put "CEO" in your handle on a free internet forum is comical enough haha... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S2S Posted October 4, 2011 Share Posted October 4, 2011 If any of my investments were down ~60% YTD, I'd conduct a decent amount of self reflection. As opposed to, you know, relentless ad hominem on people who disagree with the position. But hey, may be that's just me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smazz Posted October 4, 2011 Share Posted October 4, 2011 If any of my investments were down ~60% YTD, I'd conduct a decent amount of self reflection. As opposed to, you know, relentless ad hominem on people who disagree with the position. But hey, may be that's just me. Really? Sorry to hear that you dont have faith in what you buy that if the market pushes down ONE companys market price by 60% you have to look at yourself again asking if you know what your doing - rather than buying more cause you are confident in what you do. But then again, my long term track record is something i am proud of.. so i really dont have to go into threads of companys i dont own just to shit on them - but hey, thats just me. You must have missed alot of the bs that has been spewed in here - or you are ok with that stuff. to each their own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S2S Posted October 4, 2011 Share Posted October 4, 2011 Faith has little to do with it. What I meant is that RIMM's situation today is so much different from what it was just a year ago that some revision to the investor's notes and maybe even his thesis should at least be considered. I'd rather spend my time doing due diligence rather than, say, making fun of another user's forum handle. Seriously, who gives a sh*t? "so i really dont have to go into threads of companys i dont own just to shit on them - but hey, thats just me." So you prefer forum discussions where only the most ardent (and vocal) bulls participate? Okay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smazz Posted October 4, 2011 Share Posted October 4, 2011 Faith has little to do with it. What I meant is that RIMM's situation today is so much different from what it was just a year ago that some revision to the investor's notes and maybe even his thesis should at least be considered. I'd rather spend my time doing due diligence rather than, say, making fun of another user's forum handle. Seriously, who gives a sh*t? "so i really dont have to go into threads of companys i dont own just to shit on them - but hey, thats just me." So you prefer forum discussions where only the most ardent (and vocal) bulls participate? Okay. Seriously man, i dont know if its that you are anti Rim, or just a friend of this guy you want to stick up for him or what - which is fine, but what this guy does in here is of no use to anyone. Who gives a shit if he puts CEO in his name? Ask the guy who felt the need to put it in lol...... I dont care what names people use but in this case its like icing on the cake. There were many many many threads on FFH the company before this forum was in this current structure with those on both sides of the ledger yet we never had these types of clowns except for the OBVIOUS shorters. like i said - there are enough here who see it the way i do - maybe there are a few who see it the way you do but I cant imagine wasting my time in other threads the way this guy does. do what you will Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turar Posted October 4, 2011 Share Posted October 4, 2011 I'm also curious about people very actively participating in this thread, yet they supposedly have no stake in RIMM. If you're so bearish on RIMM, why are you not shorting it? If it's such a sure deal that it's a "goner within a year", that's a lot of money to be made. Put your money where your mouth is, instead of blabbering endlessly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beerbaron Posted October 5, 2011 Share Posted October 5, 2011 Guys, be cool. Nobody should fight over a company. RIM is clearly a value stock with some headwinds, if everybody would love the company it would not be discussed here and trade at 80$. Group thinking does not give good opportunities. Peter, you are bringing valuable insight to this conversation but not all the information that is brought is relevant. Others on the long side have gone to put RIM's management in the Apple category. Let's be realistic here, RIM is not Apple but management are not gross incompetents either, they are probably irreplaceable at this time. They did create a great business from scratch in a very competitive market. BeerBaron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parsad Posted October 5, 2011 Share Posted October 5, 2011 Hey guys...take a chill pill! Yes, I did just say that. 8) Like anything, you can take either side of the debate. I don't own RIMM, and I'm not particularly comfortable with what their future looks like, but at this moment, it's trading at about 2-2.5 times operating cash flows. So I can see why investors would take a flyer on it. But there is considerable risk in the business model, especially in terms of competition and market share. It's no Microsoft! But there is the distinct possibility that someone like Microsoft could step in, and buy it at a 35-40% premium for $27-29 dollars. In fact, that may be a very good idea for both Microsoft and RIMM! Cheers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liberty Posted October 5, 2011 Share Posted October 5, 2011 http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-10-05/rim-executives-resisting-buying-stock-make-investors-fret-tech.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shalab Posted October 5, 2011 Share Posted October 5, 2011 Despite the cashflow, I dont know if Microsoft would want to buy RIMM. A model similar to Nokia would be in Microsoft's best interest. As a MSFT shareholder, I wouldnt want them to pay a premium to RIMM. As a RIMM shareholder, I want RIMM to be bought out at a premium :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smazz Posted October 5, 2011 Share Posted October 5, 2011 Im pretty sure RIMM wont allow themselves to be bought out at these ranges- when you take into account all their patents its well below book. $20s or $30s isnt coming close to what this company is worth. Thats cheap for 1/2 the business (service revenue or smart phone revenue - take your pick) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parsad Posted October 5, 2011 Share Posted October 5, 2011 I guess I wasn't the only one wondering this. this question was simply not welcome on this forum, yet it was an entirely legitimate question. I wonder about the motives of some of these people who seek to censor the opposing view. what kind of "true" value investor does that? It always takes two to tango, and they are probably wondering the same thing. msft would go down 10% were they to attempt such a disastrous foray. since I am a stakeholder in msft I would really have to question my commitment. No they wouldn't. Did they even go down 10% when they offered the ludicrous $40B for Yahoo? Incidentally, you did see the post by me last night, correct? And I'm not long or short RIMM...this morning it seems Vodafone is interested. http://finance.yahoo.com/news/RIM-jumps-more-than-14-rb-320014084.html?x=0&.v=6 I think there will be some sort of deal below or around $30. The dynamic duo know they won't survive long without doing a deal with someone. They just won't give it away either. Cheers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parsad Posted October 5, 2011 Share Posted October 5, 2011 ...as for Vodaphone, it's likely somebody who owns too much of rimm making it up. why would a carrier buy a hardware company that lost to apple, google, and microsoft? the only buyers for rimm are likely the Japanese or Chinese, who can be conned into doing stupid things by their bankers. Because they may be looking to get into the hardware business, on a platform with established business networks, selling at 3 times operating cash flow, where they would also garner valuable patents, and finally, could expand the platform to work with Windows or Android. I think if someone, and I would prefer Microsoft, came in to do that...they would make money over time with limited downside risk based on the cash in the company and existing operating cash flows. At the very least, they would get all their money back within 4 years. Cheers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smazz Posted October 5, 2011 Share Posted October 5, 2011 Sanjeev, I have no problem with opposing views - I welcome them, but what this guy writes is nothing but and has aliented some who actuallly had some cronstructive info on this subject. Thats all i wanted to say - lets not confuse conflictiing views and plain ol thread shitters. thanks :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parsad Posted October 5, 2011 Share Posted October 5, 2011 Sanjeev, I have no problem with opposing views - I welcome them, but what this guy writes is nothing but and has aliented some who actuallly had some cronstructive info on this subject. Thats all i wanted to say - lets not confuse conflictiing views and plain ol thread shitters. thanks :) Smazz, you're going over the top too. We all think that we are always right, and often we think the other person can't see the forest for the trees. In the end, somebody will find out who was right and who was wrong. Just like Munger is going to be wrong about BAC! ;D Cheers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smazz Posted October 5, 2011 Share Posted October 5, 2011 Sanjeev, I have no problem with opposing views - I welcome them, but what this guy writes is nothing but and has aliented some who actuallly had some cronstructive info on this subject. Thats all i wanted to say - lets not confuse conflictiing views and plain ol thread shitters. thanks :) Smazz, you're going over the top too. We all think that we are always right, and often we think the other person can't see the forest for the trees. In the end, somebody will find out who was right and who was wrong. Just like Munger is going to be wrong about BAC! ;D Cheers! If i was going over the top i would do it to anyone who asks questions - not just one poster. Again, its strange that someone would spend so much time in a thread yet they dont own the stock or never expect to. Where does he get all the free time to take away from his CEO job? I dont have time to go into threads i dont own or care to own. This question is not coming only from me either but whatever. I can just go back to ingnoring 100% of his posts instead of 95% ;D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parsad Posted October 5, 2011 Share Posted October 5, 2011 This question is not coming only from me either but whatever. I can just go back to ingnoring 100% of his posts instead of 95% Yeah, that works too! ;D Cheers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parsad Posted October 5, 2011 Share Posted October 5, 2011 Ok, both you guys...timeout...go to your corners! The next thing I want to see on this thread is constructive discussion about RIMM, or I delete your posts. Cheers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smazz Posted October 5, 2011 Share Posted October 5, 2011 Ok, both you guys...timeout...go to your corners! The next thing I want to see on this thread is constructive discussion about RIMM, or I delete your posts. Cheers! Cant wait! ;D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myth465 Posted October 10, 2011 Share Posted October 10, 2011 The economist special report is basically about the IT revolution and consumerizing of IT. Interesting, I think RIMM is going to have major issues because of this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Munger Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 The importance of this RIMM network outage highlights that the company is still powerfully entrenched in the enterprise, which likely would have boded quite well for current shareholders over the long term given the depressed valuation. The company is entrenched primarily because of perceived reliability/security of the network relative to the alternatives. If I were a major shareholder, I would be furious that management has not yet been able to resolve -- reliability/security is the essence of the company's competitive advantage today...if this perception is meaningfully damaged as a result of this debacle, the company is in trouble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beerbaron Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 Security and reliability issues is inherent to any hardware service company to name a few that come to my head: -Hotmail's open password issue a few years ago -Sony's DDOS attact -Mafia Boy Yahoo, Amazon, E-Trade, eBay and CNN DDOS attack It really sucks for RIMM tough, not a good time to drop a mainframe on the floor! BeerBaron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roundball100 Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 we all know there is a shareholder revolt at rimm. now it seems the users are revolting too. http://paidcontent.org/article/419-blackberry-users-revolt-against-rim-as-disruption-spreads/ Smartphone maker Research In Motion (RIM) is facing a user revolt after tens of millions of users in Europe, the Middle East and Africa suffered a second day without services such as BlackBerry Messenger (BBM), as the company struggled with problems at its hub in Slough, Berkshire. The company also revealed that the areas affected now include South America, with users in Brazil, Chile and Argentina suffering loss of service. So, now there are 10's of millions of BlackBerry users again. Reading this thread earlier on, I had started to believe that no one was using BlackBerry's any more. :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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