Smazz Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 we all know there is a shareholder revolt at rimm. now it seems the users are revolting too. http://paidcontent.org/article/419-blackberry-users-revolt-against-rim-as-disruption-spreads/ Smartphone maker Research In Motion (RIM) is facing a user revolt after tens of millions of users in Europe, the Middle East and Africa suffered a second day without services such as BlackBerry Messenger (BBM), as the company struggled with problems at its hub in Slough, Berkshire. The company also revealed that the areas affected now include South America, with users in Brazil, Chile and Argentina suffering loss of service. So, now there are 10's of millions of BlackBerry users again. Reading this thread earlier on, I had started to believe that no one was using BlackBerry's any more. :-) exactly like the restaurant that no one goes to anymore because the lineups to get in are always too long haha -Yogi Berra- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest valueInv Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 The importance of this RIMM network outage highlights that the company is still powerfully entrenched in the enterprise, which likely would have boded quite well for current shareholders over the long term given the depressed valuation. The company is entrenched primarily because of perceived reliability/security of the network relative to the alternatives. At this point the entrenchment might just be inertia on the part of enterprises. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CONeal Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 Services are back up. Thought it was a good move by Mike to step up and address the problem and take responsibility. While no company is perfect, when it has issues people don't want to be left in the dark with what is going on. http://www.youtube.com/user/BlackBerry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smazz Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 Services are back up. Thought it was a good move by Mike to step up and address the problem and take responsibility. While no company is perfect, when it has issues people don't want to be left in the dark with what is going on. http://www.youtube.com/user/BlackBerry I like the fact that he realizes he needs to be "out there" more. this is a good sign for where they are going. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ballinvarosig Investors Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 I wonder has this outage got anything to do with the redundancies that they had a few months ago? Very often, with a technology intensive company, some critical, highly-specialist part of a process may only be understood by a handful of people. When these people go, and when something goes wrong, a minor glitch can become a multi-day outage as engineers unfamiliar with a system struggle to figure out what's going wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Hester Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 I liked how the blackberry outage coincided almost perfectly with the new iphone 4s coming out. :D I hope the door didn't hit RIMM's market share on the way out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liberty Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 http://arstechnica.com/business/news/2011/10/apple-and-android-the-slow-pall-bearers-to-rims-eventual-demise.ars Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smazz Posted October 20, 2011 Share Posted October 20, 2011 So insider buying is a positive indicator and conversely selling would be neg indicator oh CEO guy who has so much time to post here? ok thanks - I took your advice and bought more Rim since they are not selling yet APPLE Insiders are selling and not buying http://www.secform4.com/insider-trading/320193.htm thanks again lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liberty Posted October 20, 2011 Share Posted October 20, 2011 I think it's generally accepted that insider sales are almost meaningless (there can be a thousand reasons for selling), while insider buys can only mean one thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCG Posted October 20, 2011 Share Posted October 20, 2011 So insider buying is a positive indicator and conversely selling would be neg indicator oh CEO guy who has so much time to post here? ok thanks - I took your advice and bought more Rim since they are not selling yet APPLE Insiders are selling and not buying http://www.secform4.com/insider-trading/320193.htm thanks again lol I'm not seeing any recent insider sales at Apple outside of planned option sales. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uccmal Posted October 20, 2011 Share Posted October 20, 2011 I think it's generally accepted that insider sales are almost meaningless (there can be a thousand reasons for selling), while insider buys can only mean one thing. And you believe that. Insider buying can mean any one of a number of things: - buyers are delusional about their prospects - see past buying at potash corp. - ceo's trying to solidify their job - ceo trying to cheerlead - ffh in 2001 - managers deluded about their own abilities Or, they Actually believe the company will do better going forward. I once watched a ceo buy every day until the very day the company went totally broke Dcg- how does selling options differ from selling stock? Selling opions may show belief that a companies price has peaked, or perhaps it speaks to the need to diversify. Managers may not buy their own stock even when its down for personal reasons of maintaining diversity or perhaps all their money is otherwise invested. Aside from startups you would be hard pressed to find anyone who keeps all their money in one company. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Hester Posted October 20, 2011 Share Posted October 20, 2011 I think it's generally accepted that insider sales are almost meaningless (there can be a thousand reasons for selling), while insider buys can only mean one thing. That sounds like something an Enron exec would of said. I suppose when the CFO of CCME was loading up on shares just days before the fraud was discovered it only meant one thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liberty Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 Guys, please. You can sell for a million reasons - buying a boat, diversifying into other things, divorce, etc. But usually when you buy, it's because you think it's going to be worth more. That's what I said. I didn't say that insiders were always right or that it meant you could disregard all other metrics and signs about the company, or look at it out of context, just that insider buying is usually a signal that contains less noise than insider selling -- in fact, I feel it's pretty safe to totally ignore insider selling unless the quantity is way above average. It's by looking at the whole picture that you can increase your degree of certitude about the prospects of the business, and by looking at the whole picture that you can tell if the insider buying is misguided, delusional, manipulative, etc.. On its own, it's not enough. But it sure is more useful as a signal than insider selling. So if the business is doing badly on fundamentals and management seems untrustworthy and there are a bunch of other red flags, insider buying isn't worth much. But if the business has good fundamentals and management seems trustworthy and rational, insider buying certainly is a good sign (though of course not the only sign). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCG Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 Dcg- how does selling options differ from selling stock? Selling opions may show belief that a companies price has peaked, or perhaps it speaks to the need to diversify. Because planned option sales are usually scheduled in advance and happen frequently, usually more on the basis of dates rather than stock price. Executives often schedule a certain amount of option sales on the 1st of every month, for a series of many months, for example. Of course they can specify the price they're willing to sell for, but sales are usually spread out to comply with SEC requirements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uccmal Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 Because planned option sales are usually scheduled in advance and happen frequently, usually more on the basis of dates rather than stock price. Executives often schedule a certain amount of option sales on the 1st of every month, for a series of many months, for example. Of course they can specify the price they're willing to sell for, but sales are usually spread out to comply with SEC requirements. Or it could speak to lack of conviction in the company or a belief that the stock is fairly valued or ovr valued. The disposal plan would have conditions attached by the executives such as a price to sell or exercise at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCG Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 Because planned option sales are usually scheduled in advance and happen frequently, usually more on the basis of dates rather than stock price. Executives often schedule a certain amount of option sales on the 1st of every month, for a series of many months, for example. Of course they can specify the price they're willing to sell for, but sales are usually spread out to comply with SEC requirements. Or it could speak to lack of conviction in the company or a belief that the stock is fairly valued or ovr valued. The disposal plan would have conditions attached by the executives such as a price to sell or exercise at. Well, any sales or buys could mean anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uccmal Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 I think my point is that if said executive really believed the stock was a good buy he would modify his plan to keep options. Mr. Jefferies at AApl seems to believe the stock price to be fairly valued. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCG Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 I think my point is that if said executive really believed the stock was a good buy he would modify his plan to keep options. Mr. Jefferies at AApl seems to believe the stock price to be fairly valued. But if you look at the history of Mr Jefferies you'd see that he has had automatic sales on the 11th day of nearly every month at various prices: Date Shares Stock Transaction 17-Oct-11 3,998 AAPL Automatic Sale at $417.55 - $425.34 per share. (Proceeds of about $1,685,000) 15-Oct-11 7,500 AAPL Option Exercise 15-Oct-11 3,502 AAPL Disposition (Non Open Market) at $422 per share. (Value of $1,477,844) 11-Oct-11 500 AAPL Option Exercise at $46.57 per share. (Cost of $23,285) 11-Oct-11 500 AAPL Automatic Sale at $400 per share. (Proceeds of $200,000) 3-Oct-11 3,000 AAPL Option Exercise at $46.57 per share. (Cost of $139,710) 3-Oct-11 3,000 AAPL Automatic Sale at $375.41 - $381.17 per share. (Proceeds of about $1,135,000) 16-Sep-11 1,000 AAPL Option Exercise at $46.57 per share. (Cost of $46,570) 16-Sep-11 1,000 AAPL Automatic Sale at $400 per share. (Proceeds of $400,000) 1-Sep-11 3,000 AAPL Option Exercise at $46.57 per share. (Cost of $139,710) 1-Sep-11 3,000 AAPL Automatic Sale at $381.50 - $386.03 per share. (Proceeds of about $1,151,000) 1-Aug-11 3,000 AAPL Option Exercise at $46.57 per share. (Cost of $139,710) 1-Aug-11 3,000 AAPL Automatic Sale at $393.94 - $397.68 per share. (Proceeds of about $1,187,000) 26-Jul-11 983 AAPL Option Exercise at $46.57 per share. (Cost of $45,778) 26-Jul-11 983 AAPL Automatic Sale at $400 per share. (Proceeds of $393,200) 25-Jul-11 2,017 AAPL Option Exercise at $46.57 per share. (Cost of $93,931) 25-Jul-11 2,017 AAPL Automatic Sale at $400 per share. (Proceeds of $806,800) 19-Jul-11 3,000 AAPL Option Exercise at $46.57 per share. (Cost of $139,710) 19-Jul-11 3,000 AAPL Automatic Sale at $377.92 per share. (Proceeds of $1,133,760) 6-Jul-11 500 AAPL Option Exercise at $46.57 per share. (Cost of $23,285) 6-Jul-11 500 AAPL Automatic Sale at $350 per share. (Proceeds of $175,000) 1-Jul-11 2,000 AAPL Option Exercise at $46.57 per share. (Cost of $93,140) 1-Jul-11 2,000 AAPL Automatic Sale at $335.77 - $342.53 per share. (Proceeds of about $678,000) 1-Jun-11 2,500 AAPL Option Exercise at $46.57 per share. (Cost of $116,425) 1-Jun-11 2,500 AAPL Automatic Sale at $345.39 - $351.08 per share. (Proceeds of about $871,000) 2-May-11 2,500 AAPL Option Exercise at $46.57 per share. (Cost of $116,425) 2-May-11 6,874 AAPL Automatic Sale at $346.81 - $349.77 per share. (Proceeds of about $2,394,000) 18-Apr-11 3,998 AAPL Automatic Sale at $321.41 - $327.52 per share. (Proceeds of about $1,297,000) 15-Apr-11 7,500 AAPL Option Exercise 15-Apr-11 3,502 AAPL Disposition (Non Open Market) at $327.46 per share. (Value of $1,146,764) 1-Apr-11 2,500 AAPL Option Exercise at $46.57 per share. (Cost of $116,425) 1-Apr-11 2,500 AAPL Automatic Sale at $348.30 - $351.09 per share. (Proceeds of about $874,000) 2-Mar-11 500 AAPL Option Exercise at $46.57 per share. (Cost of $23,285) 2-Mar-11 596 AAPL Automatic Sale at $350 per share. (Proceeds of $208,600) 1-Mar-11 2,000 AAPL Option Exercise at $46.57 per share. (Cost of $93,140) 1-Mar-11 29,500 AAPL Automatic Sale at $348.39 - $354.9 per share. (Proceeds of about $10,374,000) 7-Feb-11 500 AAPL Option Exercise at $46.57 per share. (Cost of $23,285) 7-Feb-11 8,000 AAPL Automatic Sale at $350 per share. (Proceeds of $2,800,000) 1-Feb-11 2,000 AAPL Option Exercise at $46.57 per share. (Cost of $93,140) 1-Feb-11 24,500 AAPL Automatic Sale at $342.05 - $345.1 per share. (Proceeds of about $8,418,000) 31-Jan-11 95 AAPL Acquisition (Non Open Market) at $222.57 per share. (Value of $21,144) 12-Dec-10 10,000 AAPL Option Exercise 12-Dec-10 4,668 AAPL Disposition (Non Open Market) at $320.56 per share. (Value of $1,496,374) 18-Oct-10 10,000 AAPL Option Exercise 18-Oct-10 4,668 AAPL Disposition (Non Open Market) at $318 per share. (Value of $1,484,424) 15-Oct-10 7,500 AAPL Option Exercise 15-Oct-10 3,502 AAPL Disposition (Non Open Market) at $317.74 per share. (Value of $1,112,725) 30-Jul-10 118 AAPL Acquisition (Non Open Market) at $179.87 per share. (Value of $21,224) 7-Jul-10 47,308 AAPL Statement of Ownership Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uccmal Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 Or it could speak to lack of conviction in the company or a belief that the stock is fairly valued or ovr valued. The disposal plan would have conditions attached by the executives such as a price to sell or exercise at. Well, any sales or buys could mean anything. That is exactly my point. Ceo guy is trying make a point earlier in the thread that lack of insider buying implies a lack of faith in the company. I am saying it is not relevant. As per Liberty's comment, insider buying can be for any number of good or bad reasons. Perhaps certain company owners already feel they have enough shares. Or their financial advisors keep them diversified to meet outside commitments. Especially for companies such as Aapl, or rimm, where there is no dividend to finance ongoing philanthropic commitments. We all witnessed what happened to Ted Turner when he over commited to the UN based on Cnn-aol-time share prices. Btw - an ipad is a truly crappy device to type on. Love it otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uccmal Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 Were each typing at the same time. The list you gave shows that Mr. jefferies has believed that Aapl stock has been fairly valued for a long time. Btw - i am not serious about that comment. I am just pointing out that buying or selling company stock is often not directly relevant to anything. On this we seem to agree except Ceo guy who thinks that executives should always buy their own undervalued stock. Even Jimmy Lee at Mercer has not been buying his stock and its at 1x cash flow. And he has a history of buying. Does that mean he believes mercer to be overvalued, undervalued, or that he is needs his cash elsewhere? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCG Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 Btw - an ipad is a truly crappy device to type on. Love it otherwise. Have you tried the split keyboard in iOS5? I'm liking it so far. Its tough to know the meaning behind sells, and I'd at least put more weight into it if someone like Tim Cook sold $100,000,000 of stock compared to board members with planned option sales. And its also important to look at the amount insiders are selling compared to the total amount they own. Maybe Mr. Jefferies is just buying a house (or houses). And yes, insiders buy for one reason, that they think the stock is going higher, but insiders can be wrong. Look at Michael Dell for another good example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmitz Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 Btw - an ipad is a truly crappy device to type on. Love it otherwise. I use a physical keyboard with it. It's great when used that way. I don't think I'll ever get used to virtual keyboards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smazz Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 Come on people, a sale is a sale unless you can prove this is for charitable donations. These Insiders make a WACK$$$$$$$$$$ of $$$$$$$ They don't need the $. The thing here is you are saying that RIM is a crappy company which we all know they arent - (please give me a crappy company that spits out Billions per quarters with no debt thanks). AL made great pts so i wont be redundant. Having said that, if the company (RIM) was so crap and insiders knew it - they would see and sell right? Right! They probably own enough of the company and at this point with all that is going on in the company asset accumulation is not their first priority. Balsille and Lazaridis made these people rich beyond belief. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smazz Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 The Billions I was referring to was Revenue. I didnt say free cash flow. Last time i checked they were positive in the earnings dept $329 million in net income this quarter. Its ok, no need for you to have a warning sign before your post since very few read yours anyway. 90% of the time i sincerely just pass over your posts - but this time, like a bad car wreck, I took a peak and like a bad car wreck, I wish I did not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VAL9000 Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 The thing here is you are saying that RIM is a crappy company which we all know they arent - (please give me a crappy company that spits out Billions per quarters with no debt thanks). How about Eastman-Kodak circa 1996 ? They had just 550mm debt which was easily serviced by $14bn in revenues / $1.2bn profits. EK was blindsided by a shift in technology and its customers rapidly abandoned it for a competing line of products that took advantage of that technology. EK did not want to cannibalize the sales of its cash flow lifeline or alienate its best customers, so they did not compete aggressively in the new market being formed. They preferred to stick to what they knew. EK mostly hobbled along for years because it was the preferred tool for a specific class of customers, but eventually no longer appealed to the mass consumer because the alternatives provided better value. Years later, EK appears set to be sold for its remaining valuable intellectual property. If you replace EK with RIMM in the above paragraph, you will generate an eerily accurate story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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