scorpioncapital Posted November 5, 2018 Share Posted November 5, 2018 TD bank in usa opens easily accounts for Canadians with cad address and it has no forex fee in USD... IB card will probably be in base currency and then you can either hold the other currencies long before or convert without fee when paying your bill. Not ideal but better. Also I imagine there would be no foreign bank reporting requirements since it would be a domestic card. Agree that EU is miles ahead in banking technology, apps, cheap wires, etc..They even have multi-currency Visa/MCs where the funds just come out of the relevant currency account linked to it and then cascade to the base currency if you run out of funds. Smart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bizaro86 Posted November 5, 2018 Share Posted November 5, 2018 I have a US domiciled cc already (from RBC, but it's basically the same product). So I'm covered in the US as I can spend in USD on my cc. Then I withdraw USD from IBKR to my USD denominated account (in Canada) and pay my US credit card with that. I'd love a similar setup for GBP, EUR and MXN. I think it's more likely that IB will offer me a product like that than a Canadian bank will... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scorpioncapital Posted November 5, 2018 Share Posted November 5, 2018 IB seems to have taken the little footnote about opening MC debit cards for CAD & EU accounts by 2018. Either it's imminent or there may be a regulatory hurdle (perhaps something to do with margin access) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muscleman Posted November 5, 2018 Share Posted November 5, 2018 Scotia passport visa infinite is probably the closest to the Sapphire Reserve card in Canada. It doesn't have some of the bigger perks ($300 in hotel credit, lounge passes are limited, etc) but it's a good card. Reward not as good as chase either, I don't think. It is also one of the very few in Canada with no foreign fees, as per this comparison. http://www.rewardscanada.ca/cccompare-all.html I do think if IBKR can make its account a one stop shop for people that will increase their customer stickiness. I would NEVER ever open a debit card that directly links to my stock account for security reasons. This account has the most of my net worth. If the debit card is stolen or hacked, I would be really worried. I would rather pay a tiny bit more in the foreign ex rate for no foreign fee credit cards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
writser Posted November 6, 2018 Share Posted November 6, 2018 I would NEVER ever open a debit card that directly links to my stock account for security reasons. This account has the most of my net worth. If the debit card is stolen or hacked, I would be really worried. I would rather pay a tiny bit more in the foreign ex rate for no foreign fee credit cards. Agreed. Apart from safety reasons I think it's also a horrible proposition from a behavioral perspective to have a credit / debit card linked to your retirement account. Recipe for disaster. Still, I like the idea as it would be basically be the only way for individuals not to get stiffed on exchange rates. I'd probably open another IB account for that (if that would make sense taking into account other IB costs). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
udravi Posted November 6, 2018 Share Posted November 6, 2018 For exchange rates there is this app called Revolut that offers a multicurrency debit card with decent fx rates for individuals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bizaro86 Posted November 7, 2018 Share Posted November 7, 2018 Part question part public service announcement for Canadians. IBKR has moved its listing to the IEX. Now, generally speaking I don't care where a listing is. If that's cheaper and is a potential incentive for lower public market costs in general I'm all for it. However, there is a big catch for Canadians. IEX is NOT a designated stock exchange by the Canadian department of finance. See the list here: https://www.fin.gc.ca/act/fim-imf/dse-bvd-eng.asp That means (I think) that IBKR shares are no longer eligible to be held in a RRSP or TFSA account. That's bad news for me, as I have quite a few of them in my RRSP, and most of my existing non-registered investments are already things that can't go in an RRSP (mostly OTC stocks and directly held real estate). Given this was previously traded on a registered exchange, is there a loophole that I can keep it? I don't want to sell IBKR, withdraw the shares from the RRSP (taxable!) or sell other assets to buy them back in non-registered form. I've emailed IEX to ask them to apply for registered status (and would encourage anyone else affected to do so as well) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KCLarkin Posted November 7, 2018 Share Posted November 7, 2018 Given this was previously traded on a registered exchange, is there a loophole that I can keep it? I don't want to sell IBKR, withdraw the shares from the RRSP (taxable!) or sell other assets to buy them back in non-registered form. I've emailed IEX to ask them to apply for registered status (and would encourage anyone else affected to do so as well) Ugh. Fortunately, I moved my IBKR from my RRSP last year. Unless IEX becomes a designated exchange before the end of the year, it seems like you need to sell. I don't see a loophole. There seems to be a Public Corporation loophole, if the company was a Canadian company. -- 50% tax 1.72 If a registered plan acquires a non-qualified investment or an existing investment becomes non-qualified, the controlling individual of the plan is subject to a tax under section 207.04 equal to 50% of the fair market value of the property at the time it is acquired or becomes non-qualified. In the case of an RESP or RDSP with multiple subscribers or holders, each such person is jointly and severally, or solidarily, liable with each other to pay the tax. Individuals liable for the tax for any calendar year must file Form RC339, Individual Return for Certain Taxes for RRSPs or RRIFs, RESPs or RDSPs or Form RC243, Tax-Free Savings Account (TFSA) Return as applicable. The form, together with any balance due, must be submitted by no later than June 30 of the following year. 1.73 The 50% tax on non-qualified investments is refundable in certain circumstances. To qualify for the refund, the investment must be disposed of before the end of the calendar year after the year in which the tax arose (or such later time as is permitted by the Minister of National Revenue). However, no refund is available if it is reasonable to consider that the controlling individual knew or ought to have known that the investment was or would become non-qualified. The forms referred to in ¶1.72 explain how to claim the refund. 1.74 If a non-qualified investment becomes qualified while being held by a registered plan, subsection 207.01(6) deems the investment to have been disposed of and reacquired by the plan. This might happen when a delisted security is relisted. This ensures that a refund is available in this situation, provided the conditions described in ¶1.73 are met. 1.75 Subsection 207.06(2) gives the Minister authority to cancel or waive all or part of the 50% tax on non-qualified investments in appropriate circumstances, taking into account such factors as reasonable error. The forms referred to in ¶1.72 explain how to apply for this relief. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KCLarkin Posted November 7, 2018 Share Posted November 7, 2018 Given this was previously traded on a registered exchange, is there a loophole that I can keep it? Actually, is it possible it is listed on Frankfurt Stock Exchange? When I enter IBKR symbol, IB gives me two options: IEX or Frankfurt. If so, Frankfurt appears to be a designated stock exchange. https://ca.finance.yahoo.com/quote/KY6.F?ql=1&p=KY6.F Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
writser Posted November 7, 2018 Share Posted November 7, 2018 Yeah, IB is listed on the "Boerse Frankfurt": http://en.boerse-frankfurt.de/stock/Interactive_Brokers_Group-share, which is a specialist venue (i.e. no open order books but market maker quotes only) of the Frankfurt Stock Exchange. I'd say that that is technically part of the Frankfurt Stock Exchange. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bizaro86 Posted November 7, 2018 Share Posted November 7, 2018 IEX got back to me and said they are working on it already, but didn't provide a time line on when it would be done. (And it probably goes at government speed, so months/years vs milliseconds...) Thanks for the suggestion on Frankfurt, that's very helpful. I'm not hugely comfortable with any uncertainty here, as 50% of my IBKR position is a couple percent of my portfolio... However, the page writser linked to notes the ISIN as the same as the one I own, so I think this should be OK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
writser Posted November 7, 2018 Share Posted November 7, 2018 It's definitely the same stock. Question is if the Canadian government is ok with you buying / holding the stock in the US on IEX when the designated listing is on a floor-trading segment of the Frankfurter Boerse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bizaro86 Posted November 7, 2018 Share Posted November 7, 2018 Thanks! I'm pretty sure any Frankfurt listing qualifies, as exchanges where only certain tiers are allowed (TSX Venture, Jamaica) have the allowed tiers in brackets in the list I linked above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matts Posted November 7, 2018 Share Posted November 7, 2018 You should be fine. Just have the Frankfurt info ready if the CRA ever calls. I've held an OTC stock in my RRSP (which is not allowed) for years and no one has ever raised an issue. Like you, I can point to the same ISIN being dual-listed on a qualifying exchange in Amsterdam. I had to buy the OTC version because my broker won't let me buy any stock outside NA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hielko Posted November 7, 2018 Share Posted November 7, 2018 Thanks! I'm pretty sure any Frankfurt listing qualifies, as exchanges where only certain tiers are allowed (TSX Venture, Jamaica) have the allowed tiers in brackets in the list I linked above. You think so? I'm not a Canadian, don't know anything about Canadian taxes, but would seem very logical to me that what counts is an official listing. Because you don't even have to go outside the US if you want to trade IBKR on something else than IEX itself. You can route your order to the NYSE, AMEX, BATS and a dozen other US exchanges/trading venues. Secondly, that would probably imply that you can just ignore the whole designated exchange rule, since especially in Frankfurt you can trade basically everything that is listed somewhere else in the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bizaro86 Posted November 7, 2018 Share Posted November 7, 2018 Thanks! I'm pretty sure any Frankfurt listing qualifies, as exchanges where only certain tiers are allowed (TSX Venture, Jamaica) have the allowed tiers in brackets in the list I linked above. You think so? I'm not a Canadian, don't know anything about Canadian taxes, but would seem very logical to me that what counts is an official listing. Because you don't even have to go outside the US if you want to trade IBKR on something else than IEX itself. You can route your order to the NYSE, AMEX, BATS and a dozen other US exchanges/trading venues. Secondly, that would probably imply that you can just ignore the whole designated exchange rule, since especially in Frankfurt you can trade basically everything that is listed somewhere else in the world. It has a symbol in Frankfurt, which seems to imply that there is some sort of listing? Even with no volume or reporting requirements it seems to meet the letter of the law. I know a bit about Canadian taxes and nothing about the Frankfurt exchange. Happily, that is also the knowledge breakdown of anyone who would audit this, so as long as they have that listing page I think it's fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
writser Posted November 7, 2018 Share Posted November 7, 2018 Maybe it's against the spirit of the law - but by the same spirit it should be possible to own a large cap US company like IBKR regardless of whether its primary listing is NYSE or IEX. And according to the letter of the law it is listed in Frankfurt .. I'd be inclined to hold the position but I'm no expert on Canada either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bizaro86 Posted November 7, 2018 Share Posted November 7, 2018 Maybe it's against the spirit of the law - but by the same spirit it should be possible to own a large cap US company like IBKR regardless of whether its primary listing is NYSE or IEX. And according to the letter of the law it is listed in Frankfurt .. I'd be inclined to hold the position but I'm no expert on Canada either. Yeah, the rule is intended to prevent people from putting stock options in pre-IPO stuff in tax free vehicles, and to prevent fraudsters from getting people's retirement money. Neither of these are an issue here, as you say IBKR is a big US public company, shouldn't be an issue. If I can dance into a position that let's me keep it I will. In some ways I wish this happened before the big recent drop in IBKR shares, as I might have sold... at the current price I'm more likely to add than sell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rb Posted November 7, 2018 Share Posted November 7, 2018 Guys it's ok. You can actually hold a lot of stuff in your RRSP and TFSA. It's not that if it's not listed on a designated exchange you can't hold it. It's that if it's listed on a designated exchange you can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bizaro86 Posted November 7, 2018 Share Posted November 7, 2018 I don't think IBKR meets any of the other qualifications for RRSP/TFSA inclusion. Many of the private investments you may be thinking of are actually done using a specific share class of a small publicly traded company. Anyway, I found the specific wording from the CRA about this: 1.19 Many stock exchanges in the European Union (EU) operate two market segments, an official EU-regulated market and an unofficial market that is regulated by the exchange itself. The latter markets include the Alternative Investment Market (AIM) of the London Stock Exchange, Alternext operated by the various stock exchanges that comprise Euronext and the Open Market of the Frankfurt Stock Exchange. Only the official, EU-regulated markets qualify as a designated stock exchange provided the stock exchange is included on the Department of Finance list. The unofficial, exchange-regulated markets do not qualify as they are not recognized as an official market under European Union law, nor are they subject to stringent transparency requirements and investor protection regulations. It follows then that a listing on an unofficial, exchange-regulated market is not a basis for a registered plan trustee to confirm qualified investment status of a particular security. Does anyone know how I'd figure out whether Interactive Brokers is on the open market or not? https://www.canada.ca/en/revenue-agency/services/tax/technical-information/income-tax/income-tax-folios-index/series-3-property-investments-savings-plans/series-3-property-investments-savings-plan-folio-10-registered-plans-individuals/income-tax-folio-s3-f10-c1-qualified-investments-rrsps-resps-rrifs-rdsps-tfsas.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bizaro86 Posted November 7, 2018 Share Posted November 7, 2018 Hmm.. looks like it is on the open market, which is specifically excluded. I think I may need to sell these if IEX doesn't get registered by the end of the year. Maybe I can generate similar exposure with options in my non-registered account, as I flat out can't buy the same amount of shares. This is not great... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rb Posted November 7, 2018 Share Posted November 7, 2018 If you want to go the options route, why not just buy calls in your RRSP? The calls should be trading on a designated exchange. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scorpioncapital Posted November 8, 2018 Share Posted November 8, 2018 It seems both Revolut and IB are going to offer cards Mastercard in 2019. These two will be the most competitive products for foreign transactions, withdrawals, etc... And I believe it won't be reportable as foreign asset card because they will be Canadian cards yet you will get the same benefits for foreign use or living abroad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flesh Posted November 28, 2018 Share Posted November 28, 2018 Punch card trader! Nicely done! Sick write up! It's always exciting seeing that what can be known is much greater than what is known. Totally missed the I-broker NIM bit myself. Also, the analysis surrounding switching costs vs new clients in asia etc was quite nice. https://valueinvestorsclub.com/idea/INTERACTIVE_BROKERS_GROUP/4701018140 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Libs Posted December 6, 2018 Share Posted December 6, 2018 Punch card trader! Nicely done! Sick write up! It's always exciting seeing that what can be known is much greater than what is known. Totally missed the I-broker NIM bit myself. Also, the analysis surrounding switching costs vs new clients in asia etc was quite nice. https://valueinvestorsclub.com/idea/INTERACTIVE_BROKERS_GROUP/4701018140 Cliff notes? This VIC write-up is not available to non-members yet. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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