Guest wellmont Posted June 21, 2013 Share Posted June 21, 2013 lots of folks with proven bs detectors think this is a fraud. Who? Gotham City Research @GothamResearch 6h ”This is not an accident waiting to happen -- it’s an accident in motion,” Lynn Turner former chief accountant of the SEC, on $EBIX Retweeted by LST Peter, how are these guys proven? Here is their site. http://gothamcityresearch.com/ it's not just them. it's old pros who have seen frauds come and go (down the drain). I stress OLD. their bs detectors are "deadly". having an infallible bs detector is a gift. Again, who? Which old pros? the guys from alder lane eggs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edward Posted June 21, 2013 Share Posted June 21, 2013 the guys from alder lane eggs. like the guy who blew his hedge fund in 2008 and now raises chicken? http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/26/business/goldman-sachs-denies-claims-it-led-to-copper-rivers-demise.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siddharth18 Posted June 21, 2013 Share Posted June 21, 2013 http://seekingalpha.com/article/1514502-ebix-worth-no-more-than-8-likely-headed-to-0 And the hits just keep on coming...Gotta say Daniel has convinced a lot of holders that EBIX is worthless. Strange there are no options dated 2014 and 2015? (LEAPs) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest wellmont Posted June 21, 2013 Share Posted June 21, 2013 the guys from alder lane eggs. like the guy who blew his hedge fund in 2008 and now raises chicken? http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/26/business/goldman-sachs-denies-claims-it-led-to-copper-rivers-demise.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0 looks like he was right, as usual, but his wall street partners failed him. beware CEO with foreign accents. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mankap Posted June 21, 2013 Share Posted June 21, 2013 The company is trading at 4XFCF. Even if you assume that Ebix will have to pay $100m to settle class action law suites, it is still cheap. EBix can buyback the whole floating stock with 3 years of FCF. Robin should devote all the FCF for next 3 years to buyback and should not do another LBO. This way he will own 100% of the company in 3 years. I agree that it is a pity that there are no 2015 leaps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edward Posted June 21, 2013 Share Posted June 21, 2013 looks like he was right, as usual, but his wall street partners failed him. beware CEO with foreign accents. :) Yeah.... he did everything just right... (reminds me of LTCM, they had it right as well eventually, too bad for them). And his foreign accent comment I found hilarious. Top notch DD. :D Listen to this Marc Cohodes fella, that's a winner right there 8) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest wellmont Posted June 21, 2013 Share Posted June 21, 2013 looks like he was right, as usual, but his wall street partners failed him. beware CEO with foreign accents. :) Yeah.... he did everything just right... (reminds me of LTCM, they had it right as well eventually, too bad for them). And his foreign accent comment I found hilarious. Top notch DD right there :D Listen to this Marc Cohodes fella, that's a winner right there 8) that's just part of his dd. but it's something I am going to remember. because it seems to be true. :) anyway I have no idea why value investors get fooled by these kinds of stocks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
value-is-what-you-get Posted June 21, 2013 Share Posted June 21, 2013 ... beware CEO with foreign accents. :) Yeah like Jeffrey Skilling or Bernard Ebbers or Richard Fuld or Eitan Wertheimer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edward Posted June 21, 2013 Share Posted June 21, 2013 anyway I have no idea why value investors get fooled by these kinds of stocks. 1. Management has a significant stake in the business. 2. Management seems to have done a good job over the years. 3. The business has pretty decent growth prospects. 4. To grow organically, near zero cash is needed (a-la-Microsoft), hence a huge ROIC. 5. Business is reasonably priced. I think it's pretty obvious why investors would go for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cayale Posted June 21, 2013 Share Posted June 21, 2013 lots of folks with proven bs detectors think this is a fraud. Who? Gotham City Research @GothamResearch 6h ”This is not an accident waiting to happen -- it’s an accident in motion,” Lynn Turner former chief accountant of the SEC, on $EBIX Retweeted by LST Peter, how are these guys proven? Here is their site. http://gothamcityresearch.com/ it's not just them. it's old pros who have seen frauds come and go (down the drain). I stress OLD. their bs detectors are "deadly". having an infallible bs detector is a gift. Again, who? Which old pros? the guys from alder lane eggs. Lynn Turner has some chops... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SFValue Posted June 21, 2013 Share Posted June 21, 2013 I have been following EBIX for a few years now and was long on and off, lastly selling after the GS offer. I was inclined towards the long side, but I changed my mind with one simple issue: after a Bloomberg article reporting that the company is being probed by the SEC in November EBIX emphatically denied it saying "The Ebix senior management team has not been advised of nor is it aware of any SEC investigation regarding the Company's previous filings," CEO Robin Raina said in a press release. "We stand behind the accuracy of our public filings. The Bloomberg article is inaccurate and misleading in many respects and we intend to evaluate all avenues of recourse." then we learned in the 10Q that: On April 16, 2013, the Company received a second subpoena from the SEC seeking additional documents in their formal, non-public fact-finding inquiry and investigation styled In the Matter of Ebix, Inc. (A-3318), which primarily relates to the issues raised in the matter styled In re: Ebix, Inc. Securities Litigation, Civil Action No. 1:11-CV-02400-RWS (N.D. Ga.). This follows the receipt by the Company on December 3, 2012 of the first subpoena from the SEC dated November 30, 2012, stating that the SEC is conducting this non-public fact-finding inquiry and investigation and seeking documents relating to the issues raised therein and in an online news article based on unnamed sources, published on November 3, 2012 speculating about the existence of such an investigation. The Company is cooperating fully with the SEC to provide the requested documents and otherwise assist in the SEC's review, and advised the Acquiring Parties of the existence of this matter as well as the open tax audit discussed in Note 6, prior to the execution of the Merger Agreement. that did it for me. maybe they are clean after all this investigations, actually, the investigations are the only way to redemption. GS seal of approval, I thought, was good enough, but apparently there is one and only one Gold Standard in deals WEB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SFValue Posted June 21, 2013 Share Posted June 21, 2013 to be more clear. the BBG article come out first week of November, the subpoena in early December, what bothered me was the disclosure (or lack of) plus the the accuracy of the reporting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest wellmont Posted June 21, 2013 Share Posted June 21, 2013 anyway I have no idea why value investors get fooled by these kinds of stocks. 1. Management has a significant stake in the business. 2. Management seems to have done a good job over the years. 3. The business has pretty decent growth prospects. 4. To grow organically, near zero cash is needed (a-la-Microsoft), hence a huge ROIC. 5. Business is reasonably priced. I think it's pretty obvious why investors would go for that. it's a rollup. all those businesses it acquired are good? it's not uncommon for management to have a significant stake in a fraud. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oddballstocks Posted June 21, 2013 Share Posted June 21, 2013 anyway I have no idea why value investors get fooled by these kinds of stocks. 1. Management has a significant stake in the business. 2. Management seems to have done a good job over the years. 3. The business has pretty decent growth prospects. 4. To grow organically, near zero cash is needed (a-la-Microsoft), hence a huge ROIC. 5. Business is reasonably priced. I think it's pretty obvious why investors would go for that. it's a rollup. all those businesses it acquired are good? it's not uncommon for management to have a significant stake in a fraud. I've been following this thread with interest, no position. But just thinking out loud, the two ways a crooked management would benefit from a fraud would be really high salaries, or large equity stakes correct? If a company were a fraud most likely financial statements might be overstated, and cash flow would be lower than recorded, so a high salary wouldn't work. That leaves a high equity component as the only way to benefit. The company puts out phony numbers, the stock rises, insiders benefit. Isn't that what's going on here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mankap Posted June 21, 2013 Share Posted June 21, 2013 If insiders knew that it is fraud, why would they not sell. Insiders have not sold much.They are still holding the shares. Insiders in growth companies constantly sell but that is not the case here. They have the most to lose. If it goes to zero, Robin Raina loses the most. Ebix has paid for acquisitions mostly with cash.They spent 100m on buyback. You can fake Income statements and earnings, but how do you create cash. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oddballstocks Posted June 21, 2013 Share Posted June 21, 2013 If insiders knew that it is fraud, why would they not sell. Insiders have not sold much.They are still holding the shares. Insiders in growth companies constantly sell but that is not the case here. They have the most to lose. If it goes to zero, Robin Raina loses the most. Ebix has paid for acquisitions mostly with cash.They spent 100m on buyback. You can fake Income statements and earnings, but how do you create cash. Isn't selling to GS the ultimate cash out? Instead of selling shares piece-meal why not sell all at once? I have no clue if this is a fraud, all I know is I've read some of the articles that point out inaccuracies and some of the statements, and there are way too many red flags to invest. There are MANY companies just as cheap without the same accusations, I would go for something cheap and clean, why bother with potential fraud? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mankap Posted June 21, 2013 Share Posted June 21, 2013 Ebix, Inc. Announces $100 Million Stock Repurchase http://finance.yahoo.com/news/ebix-inc-announces-100-million-191114027.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyten1 Posted June 21, 2013 Share Posted June 21, 2013 too bad its within next 24month surprise the stock didn't move much Ebix, Inc. Announces $100 Million Stock Repurchase http://finance.yahoo.com/news/ebix-inc-announces-100-million-191114027.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest wellmont Posted June 21, 2013 Share Posted June 21, 2013 if they use cash for acquisitions and they had a big buyback why do they have 3m more shares outstanding now than they did at end of 2009? ceo sold 500k shares last year for $17. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SFValue Posted June 21, 2013 Share Posted June 21, 2013 If insiders knew that it is fraud, why would they not sell. Insiders have not sold much.They are still holding the shares. Insiders in growth companies constantly sell but that is not the case here. They have the most to lose. If it goes to zero, Robin Raina loses the most. Ebix has paid for acquisitions mostly with cash.They spent 100m on buyback. You can fake Income statements and earnings, but how do you create cash. Isn't selling to GS the ultimate cash out? Instead of selling shares piece-meal why not sell all at once? I have no clue if this is a fraud, all I know is I've read some of the articles that point out inaccuracies and some of the statements, and there are way too many red flags to invest. There are MANY companies just as cheap without the same accusations, I would go for something cheap and clean, why bother with potential fraud? CEO was rolling over all his equity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CONeal Posted June 21, 2013 Share Posted June 21, 2013 If insiders knew that it is fraud, why would they not sell. Insiders have not sold much.They are still holding the shares. Insiders in growth companies constantly sell but that is not the case here. They have the most to lose. If it goes to zero, Robin Raina loses the most. Ebix has paid for acquisitions mostly with cash.They spent 100m on buyback. You can fake Income statements and earnings, but how do you create cash. Isn't selling to GS the ultimate cash out? Instead of selling shares piece-meal why not sell all at once? I have no clue if this is a fraud, all I know is I've read some of the articles that point out inaccuracies and some of the statements, and there are way too many red flags to invest. There are MANY companies just as cheap without the same accusations, I would go for something cheap and clean, why bother with potential fraud? But management wasn't cashing out in the sell to GS. They would retain their position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest wellmont Posted June 21, 2013 Share Posted June 21, 2013 If insiders knew that it is fraud, why would they not sell. Insiders have not sold much.They are still holding the shares. Insiders in growth companies constantly sell but that is not the case here. They have the most to lose. If it goes to zero, Robin Raina loses the most. Ebix has paid for acquisitions mostly with cash.They spent 100m on buyback. You can fake Income statements and earnings, but how do you create cash. Isn't selling to GS the ultimate cash out? Instead of selling shares piece-meal why not sell all at once? I have no clue if this is a fraud, all I know is I've read some of the articles that point out inaccuracies and some of the statements, and there are way too many red flags to invest. There are MANY companies just as cheap without the same accusations, I would go for something cheap and clean, why bother with potential fraud? exactly. why fly that close to the sun. there is enough zany stuff going on that you would have to be nuts to get involved with this guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SFValue Posted June 21, 2013 Share Posted June 21, 2013 If insiders knew that it is fraud, why would they not sell. Insiders have not sold much.They are still holding the shares. Insiders in growth companies constantly sell but that is not the case here. They have the most to lose. If it goes to zero, Robin Raina loses the most. Ebix has paid for acquisitions mostly with cash.They spent 100m on buyback. You can fake Income statements and earnings, but how do you create cash. Isn't selling to GS the ultimate cash out? Instead of selling shares piece-meal why not sell all at once? I have no clue if this is a fraud, all I know is I've read some of the articles that point out inaccuracies and some of the statements, and there are way too many red flags to invest. There are MANY companies just as cheap without the same accusations, I would go for something cheap and clean, why bother with potential fraud? exactly. why fly that close to the sun. there is enough zany stuff going on that you would have to be nuts to get involved with this guy. thats precisely why it is/was miss priced.... which direction? I don't know, thought GS found out initially..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parsad Posted June 21, 2013 Share Posted June 21, 2013 If insiders knew that it is fraud, why would they not sell. Insiders have not sold much.They are still holding the shares. Insiders in growth companies constantly sell but that is not the case here. They have the most to lose. If it goes to zero, Robin Raina loses the most. Ebix has paid for acquisitions mostly with cash.They spent 100m on buyback. You can fake Income statements and earnings, but how do you create cash. Isn't selling to GS the ultimate cash out? Instead of selling shares piece-meal why not sell all at once? I have no clue if this is a fraud, all I know is I've read some of the articles that point out inaccuracies and some of the statements, and there are way too many red flags to invest. There are MANY companies just as cheap without the same accusations, I would go for something cheap and clean, why bother with potential fraud? exactly. why fly that close to the sun. there is enough zany stuff going on that you would have to be nuts to get involved with this guy. At the same time, Gotham's SA article today was a piece of fluff with comments that I would consider close to borderline slander or libel...regardless of whether EBIX is a fraud or not. I can't stand guys like this hiding behind a curtain! Stick to the data and actual filings...not the innuendo! Cheers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest wellmont Posted June 21, 2013 Share Posted June 21, 2013 If insiders knew that it is fraud, why would they not sell. Insiders have not sold much.They are still holding the shares. Insiders in growth companies constantly sell but that is not the case here. They have the most to lose. If it goes to zero, Robin Raina loses the most. Ebix has paid for acquisitions mostly with cash.They spent 100m on buyback. You can fake Income statements and earnings, but how do you create cash. Isn't selling to GS the ultimate cash out? Instead of selling shares piece-meal why not sell all at once? I have no clue if this is a fraud, all I know is I've read some of the articles that point out inaccuracies and some of the statements, and there are way too many red flags to invest. There are MANY companies just as cheap without the same accusations, I would go for something cheap and clean, why bother with potential fraud? exactly. why fly that close to the sun. there is enough zany stuff going on that you would have to be nuts to get involved with this guy. thats precisely why it is/was miss priced.... which direction? I don't know, thought GS found out initially..... this used to be a penny stock not that long ago. ceo has a bunch of penny priced stock options and he got the stock up to $20 by rolling up a bunch of software companies. he also takes home large compensation for a company this size. note he came up through the ranks as salesman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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