Your annual expenditure poll

[SmallCap]

Parsad,

 

it is almost completely home cooked (my wife is an excellent cook) our meals are simple, meaning one main dish instead of multiple different items for each meal but that one dish is very good. we eat very little meat (it is difficult to get good quality meat at a reasonable price). We have raise simple tomatoes and peppers in pots in our back yard which is something that almost anyone can do no matter your gardening experience or available land. the ROI for raising those simple items is incredible.

 

We live in the Michigan fruit belt and there are great u-pick places all around us and a nice summer evening for us is to go and pick a bunch of strawberries, cherries, blueberries or whatever followed by a trip to the beaches of Lake Michigan. my wife and I have been jokingly called fruitivores but that gives us really good quality fruit that is the epitome of fresh for a very reasonable price. And the fact that the time of picking apples together as a family counts as a wonderful time is an added bonus for us.

 

when it comes to fruits and vegetables we tend to eat very heavily whatever is in season. This way you get better food for better prices. It just means that right now we are eating a lot of squash, potatoes and apples with our meals. I think this means that in January our costs probably stay around the same maybe a little higher but our quality of food most likely goes down.

 

And then like you we shop for good deals at the grocery store and will sometimes change our planned meals based on what is a really good deal.

 

by the way I have a friend who says their food budget is 400 per month and they have 6 kids between the ages of 4 and 18, not sure how they do it, I know they raise a lot of food having a 1/3 acre garden but I still find it amazing.

[ERICOPOLY]

Small portions once in a while is perfectly fine. 

 

That's certainly true.

 

Does anyone think I should at least get an efficient water user subsidy?

 

From Shalab's link:

Producing 1 kg of animal protein requires about 100 times more water than producing 1 kg of grain protein

 

I hear these rumblings about a water shortage looming.  I wonder how much of this water is based on "water rights" -- and so do the animal feed growers really bear the costs of the excess water usage?  Somewhere downstream there is an economic cost.  But that would be yet another external cost not baked into the price of meat.

[Parsad]

Parsad,

 

it is almost completely home cooked (my wife is an excellent cook) our meals are simple, meaning one main dish instead of multiple different items for each meal but that one dish is very good. we eat very little meat (it is difficult to get good quality meat at a reasonable price). We have raise simple tomatoes and peppers in pots in our back yard which is something that almost anyone can do no matter your gardening experience or available land. the ROI for raising those simple items is incredible.

 

We live in the Michigan fruit belt and there are great u-pick places all around us and a nice summer evening for us is to go and pick a bunch of strawberries, cherries, blueberries or whatever followed by a trip to the beaches of Lake Michigan. my wife and I have been jokingly called fruitivores but that gives us really good quality fruit that is the epitome of fresh for a very reasonable price. And the fact that the time of picking apples together as a family counts as a wonderful time is an added bonus for us.

 

when it comes to fruits and vegetables we tend to eat very heavily whatever is in season. This way you get better food for better prices. It just means that right now we are eating a lot of squash, potatoes and apples with our meals. I think this means that in January our costs probably stay around the same maybe a little higher but our quality of food most likely goes down.

 

And then like you we shop for good deals at the grocery store and will sometimes change our planned meals based on what is a really good deal.

 

by the way I have a friend who says their food budget is 400 per month and they have 6 kids between the ages of 4 and 18, not sure how they do it, I know they raise a lot of food having a 1/3 acre garden but I still find it amazing.

 

Good stuff!  I actually really like the u-pick idea with the wife and kids.  I'm sure the children find it neat to pick something off the bush and then eat it.  Teaches them a bunch of different things.  Cheers!

[UhuruPeak]

Ericopoly,

 

I haven't been following the blog in a little while, so bear with me if you already answered that one at length.  Back a few months ago, you seemed very much into Taubes (GCBC, Why we get fat), and with great results if I recall (allergies, weight loss, perspiration, sleep); I purchased & read both books, and have spent countless hours reading Mark Sisson, perfecthealthdiet (Paul Jaminet) and others, which all advocate the same general food philosophy.  Yet a day or two ago, you wrote on this thread that your family moved to (near-)vegan for health reasons.  What specifically triggered the decision?

PS: I had blood work done a couple of weeks before I changed my diet last January, and will have one done in a week so I'll be able to see how my own body reacts to more meat / less carbs - but I am very curious about your own example.

[ERICOPOLY]

Ericopoly,

 

I haven't been following the blog in a little while, so bear with me if you already answered that one at length.  Back a few months ago, you seemed very much into Taubes (GCBC, Why we get fat), and with great results if I recall (allergies, weight loss, perspiration, sleep); I purchased & read both books, and have spent countless hours reading Mark Sisson, perfecthealthdiet (Paul Jaminet) and others, which all advocate the same general food philosophy.  Yet a day or two ago, you wrote on this thread that your family moved to (near-)vegan for health reasons.  What specifically triggered the decision?

PS: I had blood work done a couple of weeks before I changed my diet last January, and will have one done in a week so I'll be able to see how my own body reacts to more meat / less carbs - but I am very curious about your own example.

 

My wife and I watched the Forks over Knives movie.  That got us to agree to try the vegan diet for a while.  But we're still on the no sugar added thing -- a vegan whole foods diet.  And I try to avoid eating many sweet fruits -- this is easy because they are high GI foods so my wife now has a reason (diabetes) to avoid/moderate them anyway.  But lemons, grapefruit, avocados are staples.

 

Still on the Taubes recommendations too -- we use hulled barley instead of brown rice.  Barley has the lowest GI index -- 25 for pearl barley so hulled barley must be even lower.  Practically 1/2 the GI index of rice.  I was surprised, hulled barley is actually very good and easy to eat.  It's like chewing boiled corn, only without the sweetness.

 

Taubes never said carbs were bad -- he just thinks the ones that raise your blood sugar are bad.  Thus, eat the ones with the maximum fiber to slow the absorption rate.

 

We don't eat plain green salads -- too bland.  We make saag (from swiss chard, spinach, and kale), chana masala, spicy hot tabbouleh, roasted pepper & eggplant soup, sauteed chanterelle mushrooms, etc...  Mediterranean dishes too -- olives, peppers, eggplant, garlic, etc... divine.

 

We don't eat any tofu -- gross!  That stuff tastes nasty.  We look for dishes that never had dairy or meat in the first place -- thus no substituting with tofu.  Dishes that were inherently vegan in the first place were designed with herbs and spices for flavor.  We love Indian dishes.

 

I can't do bland food.  I like spicy hot with rich flavor.  I still go and get my burritos, I just have them with rice/black beans/cilantro/onion/guacamole/pico de gallo/salsa/jalapenos. 

 

Basically, once you agree that chips, guacamole & salsa can be worth rolling in, then you can conceptualize that fruits and vegetables can be made to taste good.

 

 

 

 

 

[Parsad]

My wife and I watched the Forks over Knives movie.  That got us to agree to try the vegan diet for a while.  But we're still on the no sugar added thing -- a vegan whole foods diet.  And I try to avoid eating many sweet fruits -- this is easy because they are high GI foods so my wife now has a reason (diabetes) to avoid them anyway.  But lemons, grapefruit, avocados are staples.

 

Still on the Taubes recommendations too -- we use hulled barley instead of brown rice.  Barley has the lowest GI index -- 25 for pearl barley so hulled barley must be even lower.  Practically 1/2 the GI index of rice.  I was surprised, hulled barley is actually very good and easy to eat.  It's like chewing boiled corn, only without the sweetness.

 

Taubes never said carbs were bad -- he just thinks the ones that raise your blood sugar are bad.  Thus, eat the ones with the maximum fiber to slow the absorption rate.

 

We don't eat plain green salads -- too bland.  We make saag, chana masala, spicy hot tabbouleh, roasted pepper & eggplant soup, sauteed chanterelle mushrooms, etc...  Mediterranean dishes too -- olives, peppers, eggplant, garlic, etc... divine.

 

We don't eat any tofu -- gross!  That stuff tastes nasty.  We look for dishes that never had dairy or meat in the first place -- thus no substituting with tofu.  Dishes that were inherently vegetarian in the first place were designed with herbs and spices for flavor.  We love Indian dishes.

 

I can't do bland food.  I like spicy hot with rich flavor.  I still go and get my burritos, I just have them with rice/black beans/cilantro/onion/guacamole/pico de gallo/salsa/jalapenos. 

 

Basically, once you agree that chips, avocado & salsa can be worth rolling in, then you can conceptualize that fruits and vegetables can be made to taste good.

 

That's pretty much what I eat outside of the hulled barley.  Oh yeah, throw in a burger every two weeks!  Cheers!

[UhuruPeak]

I guess I'm still not sure why you cut the meat? What's wrong with it if organic + grass fed/finished?

Btw - agreed on Taubes not dissing carbs per se; the Jaminets (perfect health diet) and even Sisson (Mark's daily apple) don't either.  I'm probably around 100 grams of carb / day on average, but above all I cut the bread/pasta/rice + most sugar & usually try to limit high glycemic fruits & milk - so I do mostly meat/fish more because I lift (heavy) weights than because I think that's the only thing I'm allowed.

[moore_capital54]

I am going to go on a little personal rant here with regards to this thread because I found myself thinking about some of the posts here several times throughout the day.

 

Initially I thought the post by Stanleyhp was great and as I mentioned to him it reminded me of myself when I was in University, spending nothing, saving a bunch and waiting tables at a well known Toronto Steakhouse.  I felt that he was young enough where it was OK to be living at a quality of life that I today perceive to be a bit extreme.

 

The next batch of posts caught me a little off guard, as it unmasked a lot of you to me, and I couldn't help but feel that for the most part you guys were ridiculously prudent to the point of not really enjoying what life has to offer. At that stage I stopped participating in the conversation as I did not think I had much to offer.

 

As the posts continued coming in, I was absolutely shocked at how many of you went to an almost insane extent just to save money on food, and I had not experienced anything of that sort since my University days.

 

Then today while having lunch at Mortons of all places, I was telling my partner about this group of value investors I tend to spend too much time with on the internet and he too was shocked and started asking me questions about some of the guys here, after establishing that you were all above average and even superb investors, we both realized that it is people like you that the US needs right now. People that save more than they spend, people that think outside the box in order to increase their personal wealth, and that whether this is an indicator of what may save the US or not, the entire experience has been pretty enlightening for me.

 

I really do hope that you guys represent a portion of the population in the US that is quietly growing in numbers and is  going to help get things back in order because to us living in the major cities and earning significant incomes, all we see is overconsumption zero savings and little regard for the future.

 

The kind of activities described in this thread are what contribute towards a stronger economy. What more a lot of you on this board that have been opposing some of my views on Austrian Economics and Hard Money live your life a lot more in that camp than in the Keynsian/Friedman camp as evidenced by your habits.

 

A lot of you are Ludwig Von Mises's wet dream of what constitutes wealth creation in an economy!

 

So Cheers to you guys!

 

[Liberty]

The way I look at it, there are three levers you can pull to increase your net worth.

 

1) Increase income/revenue

 

2) Decrease expenses

 

3) Make good capital allocation decisions

 

It seems obvious that a combination of the three will give better results than just pulling one or two.

[RichardGibbons]

With respect to food subsidies, I have a hypothesis that they may be accomplishing a good thing.  I suspect that in an efficient, non-subsidized market, there would be little incentive to overproduce.  As a result, I suspect that in certain years (say one in twenty), there would be droughts, which, without the oversupply caused by subsidies, would result in starvation.

 

[ERICOPOLY]

I guess I'm still not sure why you cut the meat? What's wrong with it if organic + grass fed/finished?

 

A lot less is wrong with it if it's grass fed&finished.  I am doing some self experimentation -- to see how much better I feel if I eat vegan.  So far, I do feel better. 

 

I was eating a lot of meat and dairy before.  I'm one of those people who can't just have a tiny itty bitty portion of meat on the side of the plate.  I get the taste of it and want more of it.  But if I don't get the taste of it, I'm perfectly happy not to have it.  So it's easier for me to go completely without than it is for me to have a rationed portion.

 

Anyways, we're still going to have smoked duck once in a while.  But just the ones from our yard.  Maybe every once in a while I'll smoke a pork shoulder on my Big Green Egg.  That's one of the problems.  I make the most amazing pulled pork with that contraption -- about 17 hours at 225 and that pork falls apart like nobody's business, and it's still very moist.  But I can't stop eating it -- I'm like a crack addict once I've had the first bite.

 

So now I'm going to roast vegetables in there.  No more pork shoulder for a long while.  But maybe for 4th of July or something.  Meanwhile, I hope to go at least 14 days between meat meals (the smoked duck) with no animal products in between.

 

The Forks Over Knives movie -- I'm not sure how much of it is fact or just imagination.  But the data suggests that diets low on animal protein lead to healthier outcomes.  Maybe that's because those people also smoke less cigarettes, ingest less carpet cleaner, cook without plastic containers, eat less Tylenol, or sugar, or less artificial colorings.  Probably all of the above.  And as the movie points out, your arteries will heal when on a vegan diet -- the plaques clear out, the endothelial cells regenerate.  You get restored to new again.  But it takes about 3 years for a collapsed artery to completely reverse it's decline and get back to 100%.  It's worth a watch, that movie.  They actually cut an artery open and show you the yellow fat in there causing the blockage.  But look, those arteries aren't just about heart attacks.  They affect the flow of blood to your brain of course.  And there is a lot of data to suggest that vegan diets result in less Alzheimers -- like 70% less.  And maybe that's because you eat more anti-inflammatory foods -- who knows.  But I know it's not the opposite -- people on a vegan diet don't have more issues.

 

So anyways, the movie suggested that the animal protein in dairy (casein) was harmful in high doses.  I've got no idea if that's really true, but populations who eat less dairy actually have less osteoporosis -- and that is true.  The theory is that your body demineralizes your bones so that it can use the calcium to buffer the acidosis that results from ingesting too much casein.  So I figure it must be common sense that if we evolved to behave this way in the face of too much dairy, then we shouldn't have too much dairy.  I just find it easy enough to skip it altogether, although I'm sure a moderate amount would do absolutely no harm at all.

 

But I feel great eating this diet (better than before) and it's delicious.  I grew up in a household that didn't embrace spicy cooking and thus always had this association with fat and animal protein for flavor.  That's sort of the British/northern European legacy -- boiled vegetables, iceberg lettuce with dressing, bland and boring.

 

 

 

so I do mostly meat/fish more because I lift (heavy) weights than because I think that's the only thing I'm allowed.

 

I'm lifting weights too and putting on muscle.  I don't know whether I'd put on more muscle if I ate more cheese/eggs/fish.  But I'm putting on muscle nevertheless. 

 

Think of the phrase "strong as an ox".  Yet oxen are vegans.  So I think the idea of animals (including humans) not getting enough protein from a vegan diet is a little bit far fetched.

[SmallCap]

Think of the phrase "strong as an ox".  Yet oxen are vegans.  So I think the idea of animals (including humans) not getting enough protein from a vegan diet is a little bit far fetched.

 

I don't disagree with your conclusion but I am always very skeptical when people start comparing our diet  to the diet of different animals with the assumption that mammals are the same and have the same needs.

 

Cattle have 4 stomachs and their entire digestive process is drastically different then ours, their needs are different then ours.

 

That said I am in basic agreement with what you are saying.

[ERICOPOLY]

Think of the phrase "strong as an ox".  Yet oxen are vegans.  So I think the idea of animals (including humans) not getting enough protein from a vegan diet is a little bit far fetched.

 

I don't disagree with your conclusion but I am always very skeptical when people start comparing our diet  to the diet of different animals with the assumption that mammals are the same and have the same needs.

 

Cattle have 4 stomachs and their entire digestive process is drastically different then ours, their needs are different then ours.

 

That said I am in basic agreement with what you are saying.

 

Cattle don't boil their barley however.

 

Anyhow, there is a vegan guy in the movie who is extremely well muscled -- he is one of those Ultimate Fighter guys.  He only has one stomach.  Sure, maybe his is the Michael Jordan of digestion or something.  And maybe he would be even more muscled if he ate cheese.  I don't know.  One person is certainly not a fair proxy for what all people can achieve, but personally I'm finding no problems whatsoever in putting on muscle, and I'm not eating animal products to achieve it and am doing so with only one stomache.

[Parsad]

I am going to go on a little personal rant here with regards to this thread because I found myself thinking about some of the posts here several times throughout the day.

 

Initially I thought the post by Stanleyhp was great and as I mentioned to him it reminded me of myself when I was in University, spending nothing, saving a bunch and waiting tables at a well known Toronto Steakhouse.  I felt that he was young enough where it was OK to be living at a quality of life that I today perceive to be a bit extreme.

 

The next batch of posts caught me a little off guard, as it unmasked a lot of you to me, and I couldn't help but feel that for the most part you guys were ridiculously prudent to the point of not really enjoying what life has to offer. At that stage I stopped participating in the conversation as I did not think I had much to offer.

 

As the posts continued coming in, I was absolutely shocked at how many of you went to an almost insane extent just to save money on food, and I had not experienced anything of that sort since my University days.

 

Then today while having lunch at Mortons of all places, I was telling my partner about this group of value investors I tend to spend too much time with on the internet and he too was shocked and started asking me questions about some of the guys here, after establishing that you were all above average and even superb investors, we both realized that it is people like you that the US needs right now. People that save more than they spend, people that think outside the box in order to increase their personal wealth, and that whether this is an indicator of what may save the US or not, the entire experience has been pretty enlightening for me.

 

I really do hope that you guys represent a portion of the population in the US that is quietly growing in numbers and is  going to help get things back in order because to us living in the major cities and earning significant incomes, all we see is overconsumption zero savings and little regard for the future.

 

The kind of activities described in this thread are what contribute towards a stronger economy. What more a lot of you on this board that have been opposing some of my views on Austrian Economics and Hard Money live your life a lot more in that camp than in the Keynsian/Friedman camp as evidenced by your habits.

 

A lot of you are Ludwig Von Mises's wet dream of what constitutes wealth creation in an economy!

 

So Cheers to you guys!

 

About 60% of the board readership is U.S., so that wet dream may just be reality!  ;D  Cheers!

[UhuruPeak]

Anyhow, there is a vegan guy in the movie who is extremely well muscled -- he is one of those Ultimate Fighter guys.

Thanks for the detailed answer. Note that Abe Wagner (http://www.facebook.com/pages/Abe-Wagner/94817528667) is also a pro MMA fighter, and his diet follows Mark Sisson's advice; I think we can probably find examples and counter-examples for just about any diet if we really look hard enough :)

 

Twice I've gone nearly 100% meat/eggs/fish for a few days and twice I felt better when adding some veggies/fruits back in.  I actually started watching that movie you mention last week-end but stopped when I heard the slant against meats - I guess I'm not ready for that :)  I want to continue experimenting with the high fat / fairly high protein / low car diet until I see the results from my bloodwork at the very least.  I value your opinion highly however and understand you are farther into the healthy eating journey than I am, so will keep your experience and beliefs in mind as I keep learning how my own body responds to diet.  Thank you

[rranjan]

I am going to go on a little personal rant here with regards to this thread because I found myself thinking about some of the posts here several times throughout the day.

 

Initially I thought the post by Stanleyhp was great and as I mentioned to him it reminded me of myself when I was in University, spending nothing, saving a bunch and waiting tables at a well known Toronto Steakhouse.  I felt that he was young enough where it was OK to be living at a quality of life that I today perceive to be a bit extreme.

 

The next batch of posts caught me a little off guard, as it unmasked a lot of you to me, and I couldn't help but feel that for the most part you guys were ridiculously prudent to the point of not really enjoying what life has to offer. At that stage I stopped participating in the conversation as I did not think I had much to offer.

 

As the posts continued coming in, I was absolutely shocked at how many of you went to an almost insane extent just to save money on food, and I had not experienced anything of that sort since my University days.

 

Then today while having lunch at Mortons of all places, I was telling my partner about this group of value investors I tend to spend too much time with on the internet and he too was shocked and started asking me questions about some of the guys here, after establishing that you were all above average and even superb investors, we both realized that it is people like you that the US needs right now. People that save more than they spend, people that think outside the box in order to increase their personal wealth, and that whether this is an indicator of what may save the US or not, the entire experience has been pretty enlightening for me.

 

I really do hope that you guys represent a portion of the population in the US that is quietly growing in numbers and is  going to help get things back in order because to us living in the major cities and earning significant incomes, all we see is overconsumption zero savings and little regard for the future.

 

The kind of activities described in this thread are what contribute towards a stronger economy. What more a lot of you on this board that have been opposing some of my views on Austrian Economics and Hard Money live your life a lot more in that camp than in the Keynsian/Friedman camp as evidenced by your habits.

 

A lot of you are Ludwig Von Mises's wet dream of what constitutes wealth creation in an economy!

 

So Cheers to you guys!

 

About 60% of the board readership is U.S., so that wet dream may just be reality!  ;D  Cheers!

 

If we take whole US population then these people, who are member of this board or think in similar way, will be in tiny minority. Just being on this board and talking to each other might give us illusion that there are lot's of people with same mentality but in reality I don't find too many in my day to day interactions.

[Parsad]

If we take whole US population then these people, who are member of this board or think in similar way, will be in tiny minority. Just being on this board and talking to each other might give us illusion that there are lot's of people with same mentality but in reality I don't find too many in my day to day interactions.

 

Yes, but at least you have people thinking like that.  People who will save and create more wealth by investing it prudently.  Cheers!

[ERICOPOLY]

Anyhow, there is a vegan guy in the movie who is extremely well muscled -- he is one of those Ultimate Fighter guys.

Thanks for the detailed answer. Note that Abe Wagner (http://www.facebook.com/pages/Abe-Wagner/94817528667) is also a pro MMA fighter, and his diet follows Mark Sisson's advice; I think we can probably find examples and counter-examples for just about any diet if we really look hard enough :)

 

Twice I've gone nearly 100% meat/eggs/fish for a few days and twice I felt better when adding some veggies/fruits back in.  I actually started watching that movie you mention last week-end but stopped when I heard the slant against meats - I guess I'm not ready for that :)  I want to continue experimenting with the high fat / fairly high protein / low car diet until I see the results from my bloodwork at the very least.  I value your opinion highly however and understand you are farther into the healthy eating journey than I am, so will keep your experience and beliefs in mind as I keep learning how my own body responds to diet.  Thank you

 

Mac Danzig is his name.  He lists his vegan diet here:

 

http://jasonferruggia.com/mac-danzigs-vegan-diet/

[benhacker]

Thought this was relevant to the discussion:

 

http://financiallyfit.yahoo.com/finance/article-113691-11403-3-true-story-living-well-on-11000-a-year

 

One of the things I love about this country is that their are so many ways to find happiness.  Not everyone of them makes perfect sense to me, but there is a lot of opportunity.

 

I like this guys' style, even if I wouldn't choose it myself.

 

Ben