villainx Posted October 26, 2017 Share Posted October 26, 2017 I'll elaborate with regards to the partnership and pros and cons for different regular vs tax advantaged accounts. Foreign tax issues UBTI - though it might be minimal and partnerships actively seek to avoid it K1 - never had an issue with this, but not sure how it effects tax advantage account. Reduction of cost - I heard that if it's long term hold, is it return of capital might several reduce capital basis? Which would be a reason for inclusion in tax advantage account. I might be missing something. When do you get your K-1s? I've always been paranoid they will come in late. I only have BIP and the final K1 comes later, usually around March. There is an initial one earlier in the year, but there's almost always an amended final one. I don't recall if there is any substantial difference cause I don't pay close attention to the earlier k1s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Hjorth Posted October 26, 2017 Share Posted October 26, 2017 Thanks for bringing the taxation of Brookfield L.P.s up here. They are "no-go"s for me, also PVF.UN mentioned by Eric, alone because of "flow through" taxation of the unit holders. - - - o 0 o - - - I have been thinking a bit about BAM competitors today. I found a Willis Tower Watson report called "Global Alternatives Survey 2017". There seems to be a yearly edition of it. Link. [There is a download button to press on the page, to get the report.] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gokou3 Posted October 26, 2017 Share Posted October 26, 2017 Eric, may I ask why are you invested in Partners Value instead of directly in BAM? Is it a leveraged play or was there a discount to NAV when you got in? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Hjorth Posted October 28, 2017 Share Posted October 28, 2017 gokou3, PVF.UN is levered with preferred stock also, in layers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karthikpm Posted October 29, 2017 Share Posted October 29, 2017 http://www.pressreader.com/canada/the-globe-and-mail-alberta-edition/20171027/281784219345476 BAM is buying some expensive canadian commercial real estate ( google now showed me the link as I was staying at this hotel, little scary when I think about how these topics appear ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Hjorth Posted October 29, 2017 Share Posted October 29, 2017 This afternoon I did my self the favour to listen to the 27th September 2017 Brookfield Asset Management Investor Day 2017 MP3 while at the same time having the presentation open on my monitor, while listening. Great experience, I will just say, and I'll recommend doing so to everyone interested just a bit in BAM. On the Brookfield main webpage there is a link to a Forbes interview and article about Mr. Flatt and BAM in the 16th May 2017 edition of Forbes. Especially one sentence in that article has a lot of appeal to me - the last one ... - I suppose it has to you, too: Mr. Flatt, for the record: Over the next 20 years, we are going to make an enormous amount of money. - - - o 0 o - - - Push back, please. [Financial reporting matters has already been mentioned in this topic by fellow board members.] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plato1976 Posted October 30, 2017 Share Posted October 30, 2017 I may be making a mistake here, but I don't understand the valuation, even after this year's run-up. So from this year's investor's presentation we have: ($millions) 2017 2016 Fee related earnings $ 732 $ 639 Distributions received 1,385 1,251 Realized carried interest 152 15 Total $ 2,269 $ 1,905 I believe this earning number 2.2B doesn't include the appreciation of BAM's own capital invested, it only includes the distribution from these invested capital, which is 1385M above. In another slides it's mentioned that the total return from its own capital is 18% (5% is the distribution and 13% is capital appreciation, I assume). Even if we assume this 18% number won't sustain and assume a more realistic 5%/5% in the future and add back the capital appreciation back to the earning I get 3.6B earning power. This doesn't assume an esp rosy capital appreciation prospects, and doesn't take the carry increase potential into consideration. Compared with a 40B market cap, this seems pretty cheap (even doesn't consider a few well-know growth factors) Any mistake in my calculation/logic? In that $104 slide, they have a line for carried interest and fee related interest but no line for the 'distributions received' which is a line item on page 64...Is that included in the first two? I see they generated 1.8 billion free cash flow today. The 2022 prediction would be (if outflows grow a little slower and the distributions received stay the same) $2.7 billion + $1.4 billion = $3.8 billion - ~$800m outflows = $3 billion/year. At blended average of 15x that's $45 billion in 5 years based on multiple of fcf ($40 billion today's market cap) or at 20x = $60 billion. It'd be nice to know what they are predicting for the distributions . But it seems but I don't see more than a double in 5 years or an 80 billion market cap either way. Generally, I'd say a two column approach of net invested capital and some multiple of asset management fees is more appropriate. Using FCF only doesn't give them full credit for compounding invested capital as the increasing value largely doesn't show up in earnings/FCF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Hjorth Posted October 30, 2017 Share Posted October 30, 2017 Yes, Plato, I understand it the same way as you. Furthermore - as also mentioned earlier by racemize -, I think the capital appreciation of 15 percent that you are referring to is progress in the stock price, not progress in book value per share. Personally, I'm contemplating to do a calculation of the BAM track record since introduction of IFRS accounting for BAM ['09] the Berkshire/Fairfax/Markel way, with dividends reinvested. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uccmal Posted October 30, 2017 Share Posted October 30, 2017 Article in Bloomberg about Buffett that relates to what BAM does. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-10-29/everybody-wants-to-invest-like-buffett-here-s-what-it-takes Talks about the time and expertise involved in making long term whole company investments. Buffett implemented this style over decades. BAM has been at it for generations but has really refined its focus under Bruce Flatt as an asset manager and long term owner. Private equity and hedge funds want to copy this style but just dont have the resources or long term expertise to do it very well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plato1976 Posted October 30, 2017 Share Posted October 30, 2017 I suppose eventually the capital appreciation has to be reflected on the book value, when the investment is sold, the gain is realized and/or the fund is due&closed? On average what's their funds' life cycle? Yes, Plato, I understand it the same way as you. Furthermore - as also mentioned earlier by racemize -, I think the capital appreciation of 15 percent that you are referring to is progress in the stock price, not progress in book value per share. Personally, I'm contemplating to do a calculation of the BAM track record since introduction of IFRS accounting for BAM ['09] the Berkshire/Fairfax/Markel way, with dividends reinvested. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racemize Posted October 30, 2017 Share Posted October 30, 2017 I believe Eric has just posted or will post a seeking alpha article for the recent presentation, which may be of use. He also has old ones from the last two years. Moreover, if you use BAMs method from the presentation, you get around $50 a share. Plato, I think you are missing that there is a margin associated with those fees / overhead costs to subtract. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plato1976 Posted October 30, 2017 Share Posted October 30, 2017 Hi, Racemize: These numbers are earnings, and also the cash flow items used to calculate FCF in their presentation, so I assume all costs are already deduced. I could be wrong. The only other item in the FCF calculation is an item called "OUTFLOW" which brings FCF to 1.8B from the earning number I posted in my original post which is sth like 2.2B So, I don't see the cost not included. But, may I know Eric's full seekingalpha ID? Thanks and appreciate! /P I believe Eric has just posted or will post a seeking alpha article for the recent presentation, which may be of use. He also has old ones from the last two years. Moreover, if you use BAMs method from the presentation, you get around $50 a share. Plato, I think you are missing that there is a margin associated with those fees / overhead costs to subtract. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racemize Posted October 30, 2017 Share Posted October 30, 2017 Here's the new one: https://seekingalpha.com/article/4112673-brookfield-asset-management-value-growth-next-5-years Here's last years: https://seekingalpha.com/article/3962940-2015-intrinsic-value-brookfield-asset-management I feel like something isn't quite right with that calculation, as it is coming out too high it seems like, but I'm having trouble putting my finger on it. Maybe I can try to figure it out in more detail tonight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnTheShouldersOfGiants Posted November 1, 2017 Share Posted November 1, 2017 I came across the 13f for BAM: https://whalewisdom.com/filer/brookfield-asset-management-inc#/tabholdings_tab_link Why does BAM have such a large equity portfolio? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Hjorth Posted November 1, 2017 Share Posted November 1, 2017 BAM is the owner of the General Partner [who controls the individual partnerships] in the following partnerships: Brookfield Property Partners [bPY.UN], Brookfield Renewable Partners [bEP.UN], Brookfield Infrastructure Partners [bIP.UN], and Brookfield Business Partners [bBU.UN]. Add to to that, material economic interest in each of these partnerships mentioned above. - - - o 0 o - - - Furthermore, a large position in GGP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cubsfan Posted November 1, 2017 Share Posted November 1, 2017 At one time, they owned 30% of GGP, not sure if that still holds... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrispy Posted November 2, 2017 Share Posted November 2, 2017 I believe they have increased their position in GGP recently Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnTheShouldersOfGiants Posted November 2, 2017 Share Posted November 2, 2017 I appreciate the replies but I'm not sure that explains why BAM has an equity portfolio with over 150 names. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villainx Posted November 2, 2017 Share Posted November 2, 2017 I appreciate the replies but I'm not sure that explains why BAM has an equity portfolio with over 150 names. I believe they have various funds and through their PE stuff? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racemize Posted November 2, 2017 Share Posted November 2, 2017 I appreciate the replies but I'm not sure that explains why BAM has an equity portfolio with over 150 names. I believe they have various funds and through their PE stuff? They have a public equities fund, which I imagine is being reported through the 13-F. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villainx Posted November 2, 2017 Share Posted November 2, 2017 I appreciate the replies but I'm not sure that explains why BAM has an equity portfolio with over 150 names. I believe they have various funds and through their PE stuff? They have a public equities fund, which I imagine is being reported through the 13-F. How does it perform? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racemize Posted November 2, 2017 Share Posted November 2, 2017 I appreciate the replies but I'm not sure that explains why BAM has an equity portfolio with over 150 names. I believe they have various funds and through their PE stuff? They have a public equities fund, which I imagine is being reported through the 13-F. How does it perform? I'm not sure, they talk about it occasionally, but I don't think I've seen what the performance was. It might be somewhere in one of the investor days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Hjorth Posted November 2, 2017 Share Posted November 2, 2017 Actually, it's - in principle - simple, we just have to drill down the whole BAM thing, top-down. There are 213 legal Brookfield entities on EDGAR, which we could start with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gokou3 Posted November 2, 2017 Share Posted November 2, 2017 I believe they have increased their position in GGP recently That's right: https://web.tmxmoney.com/article.php?newsid=5633276542017897&qm_symbol=BPY.UN In addition, subsequent to quarter-end, we exercised all of the outstanding GGP warrants that were set to expire on November 9, 2017, resulting in the acquisition of 68 million GGP shares for approximately $462 million. As a result, our common equity ownership of GGP increased from 29% to 34%. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sleepydragon Posted November 2, 2017 Share Posted November 2, 2017 https://www.timeout.com/newyork/blog/a-dazzling-light-installation-is-coming-to-brookfield-place-this-month-110217 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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