Spekulatius Posted May 29, 2014 Share Posted May 29, 2014 Maybe that works for you guys: https://www.proxydocs.com/0/000/776/544/hanover_foods_corp._fs.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
randomep Posted May 30, 2014 Share Posted May 30, 2014 thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wknecht Posted May 30, 2014 Share Posted May 30, 2014 Just curious, for those of you who get paper Qs forwarded through your broker (the electronic IB service seems much more convenient!) anyone get the most recent Q yet? I have my shares in a Scottrade account and got the report in the mail today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
randomep Posted May 30, 2014 Share Posted May 30, 2014 Just curious, for those of you who get paper Qs forwarded through your broker (the electronic IB service seems much more convenient!) anyone get the most recent Q yet? I have my shares in a Scottrade account and got the report in the mail today. seems really unfair that investors get the quarterly at different times based who they have as a broker...... but then again they are a pretty dark company.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mbrock77 Posted May 30, 2014 Share Posted May 30, 2014 Thanks, Spekulatius! Wow, margins were awful for the latest quarter. Gross margin was 9% and operating margin was 0.6%. A key point of the investment thesis here seems to be that a bigger, or more efficient, company would be able to improve on these. That makes sense for SG&A, but is the same usually true for COGS? What if issue is with demand and pricing power for Hanover’s products? For some comparison, the frozen foods division of Inventure Foods (SNAK) and the Birds Eye division of Pinnacle have gross margins of around 17-18% Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spekulatius Posted May 31, 2014 Share Posted May 31, 2014 Yes, Hanover Foods is in a very competitive business. I compare them to SENEA (canned food etc) which has gross margins of ~10% (a little more in a food year and less in a bad one) and very lumpy earnings. SENEA also trades below tangible book. Economies of scale in these business appear somewhat elusive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deadspace Posted June 1, 2014 Share Posted June 1, 2014 Yes, Hanover Foods is in a very competitive business. I compare them to SENEA (canned food etc) which has gross margins of ~10% (a little more in a food year and less in a bad one) and very lumpy earnings. SENEA also trades below tangible book. Economies of scale in these business appear somewhat elusive. At least in the last few quarters gross margins at Hanover have been better than SENEA - and given where SENEA trades in valuation to book it would suggest the Hanover likely could sell for book value. I suspect SG&A at Hanover would improve under a new owner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
writser Posted June 15, 2014 Share Posted June 15, 2014 Very minor issue - does anybody know how the class C preferred can be converted? Class A & B preferred can be converted into class A stock based on book value per common share divided by par value. Probably the same thing holds for class C but it would be possible this is some class of super-stock .. Assuming all preferreds and warrants are converted / exercised I get ~ 836k shares outstanding and the company would receive ~$13m for the warrants (110k with strike $120). In that case NCAV would be ~118m or $141 / share and tangible book value ~208m or $249 / share (excluding 'other assets', anybody has a clue what those are?). Seems cheapish if earnings converge back to historical levels. Thanks to those who share the quarterlies and annuals here. edited small mistake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
writser Posted June 16, 2014 Share Posted June 16, 2014 Never mind, I found it. Should do some more hard work myself before bailing out and asking for help next time :) . Annual report 2004: Under the Amended and Restated Articles, each of the shares of Series C Convertible Preferred Stock is convertible into one share of Class A Common Stock Better terms than the A & B class convertibles. I made a small sheet during the weekend to summarize the financials. Maybe of interest to some of you - feel free to point out horrible errors. Diluted shares outstanding are a bit of a hack - too lazy to make a detailed estimate for the impact of warrants & convertibles and it doesn't affect the valuation that much. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AsN_SuwzKmC7dEZnNWxiV01vd1l0bW96QWl2RlFvVEE&usp=drive_web#gid=8 Basically what I see is a company trading at 50% tangible book and earning / compounding by 8% anually. It's trading slightly below NCAV but I'm not really impressed by that given that most of the current assets are required for running the business, e.g. no excess cash as with, for example, Solitron. Possible catalysts: 1. Margins have been sliding downwards for a decade. Can they reach old levels again? 2. Return of capital to shareholders, preferably by buybacks below book. 3. A takeover at or around book would obviously be nice! I have no clue whether #1 is possible. #2 hasn't been happening and I don't see it happening soon, so the way I see it you can basically park your money here for a 'decentish' return while waiting for a takeover or a random serendipitous event. Not 100% convinced yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oddballstocks Posted June 16, 2014 Author Share Posted June 16, 2014 Never mind, I found it. Should do some more hard work myself before bailing out and asking for help next time :) . Annual report 2004: Under the Amended and Restated Articles, each of the shares of Series C Convertible Preferred Stock is convertible into one share of Class A Common Stock Better terms than the A & B class convertibles. I made a small sheet during the weekend to summarize the financials. Maybe of interest to some of you - feel free to point out horrible errors. Diluted shares outstanding are a bit of a hack - too lazy to make a detailed estimate for the impact of warrants & convertibles and it doesn't affect the valuation that much. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AsN_SuwzKmC7dEZnNWxiV01vd1l0bW96QWl2RlFvVEE&usp=drive_web#gid=8 Basically what I see is a company trading at 50% tangible book and earning / compounding by 8% anually. It's trading slightly below NCAV but I'm not really impressed by that given that most of the current assets are required for running the business, e.g. no excess cash as with, for example, Solitron. Possible catalysts: 1. Margins have been sliding downwards for a decade. Can they reach old levels again? 2. Return of capital to shareholders, preferably by buybacks below book. 3. A takeover at or around book would obviously be nice! I have no clue whether #1 is possible. #2 hasn't been happening and I don't see it happening soon, so the way I see it you can basically park your money here for a 'decentish' return while waiting for a takeover or a random serendipitous event. Not 100% convinced yet. I think you've accurately summed up why the stock is at 50% of book. Most investors don't want to wait or don't believe it'll ever be sold. The company does pay a tiny dividend, but it's not an appropriate return of capital to shareholders. A much more significant event was the wind-down of the Warehime Trust, that's extremely significant. Along with that the appointment of the next generation to management positions. Each generation is more dispersed. It started with Alan the patriarch, then John, Michael and Sally. They each have two or three children who all have ownership interests or stand to inherit large interests. They each have kids, at some point the kids want the big pay-day. Why do you think they finally published the shares outstanding and cleaned up the trust? It wasn't out of the goodness of their heart. For years management was staunchly opposed to outside shareholders even knowing this information. Why the change of heart? Yes, this is all speculation, no different than SNYX in some regards. Except here's a company at 50% of BV and growing at 8%. I don't mind sitting on this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Eriksen Posted June 16, 2014 Share Posted June 16, 2014 I think you've accurately summed up why the stock is at 50% of book. Most investors don't want to wait or don't believe it'll ever be sold. The company does pay a tiny dividend, but it's not an appropriate return of capital to shareholders. A much more significant event was the wind-down of the Warehime Trust, that's extremely significant. Along with that the appointment of the next generation to management positions. Each generation is more dispersed. It started with Alan the patriarch, then John, Michael and Sally. They each have two or three children who all have ownership interests or stand to inherit large interests. They each have kids, at some point the kids want the big pay-day. Why do you think they finally published the shares outstanding and cleaned up the trust? It wasn't out of the goodness of their heart. For years management was staunchly opposed to outside shareholders even knowing this information. Why the change of heart? Yes, this is all speculation, no different than SNYX in some regards. Except here's a company at 50% of BV and growing at 8%. I don't mind sitting on this one. The big question is "Will John's kids continue to run the company like their father?" If so, then shareholders will see little. Historically he seemed to have no problem screwing his siblings over. Michael's kids are likely doing well as their father is a much better manager/owner in my opinion - Snyder's of Hanover has grown revenues much faster than Hanover Foods over the last 20 years. Since Snyder's was a spin off from Hanover Foods, I would assume the other children own shares of Snyder's as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
randomep Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 Any news on Hanover, stock got hammered on high volume today..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oddballstocks Posted January 9, 2015 Author Share Posted January 9, 2015 Any news on Hanover, stock got hammered on high volume today..... Nothing that I know, interesting that it's the A shares that are being sold. I see nothing on B 106/175 with 100 shares at the ask. But the A's are really moving, $161k traded today so far on 1,598 shares. I'm seeing a 98/104 2x2 on the quote. Similar volume on 12/23, 11/14, and 10/31. Amazingly there has been a lot of volume on this recently SMAVG is 359. Now time to scrounge up some cash.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
randomep Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 Any news on Hanover, stock got hammered on high volume today..... Nothing that I know, interesting that it's the A shares that are being sold. I see nothing on B 106/175 with 100 shares at the ask. But the A's are really moving, $161k traded today so far on 1,598 shares. I'm seeing a 98/104 2x2 on the quote. Similar volume on 12/23, 11/14, and 10/31. Amazingly there has been a lot of volume on this recently SMAVG is 359. Now time to scrounge up some cash.. oddball you sure they haven't announced earnings? They are due for Q1, I'd wait for that before pulling the trigger.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oddballstocks Posted January 9, 2015 Author Share Posted January 9, 2015 Any news on Hanover, stock got hammered on high volume today..... Nothing that I know, interesting that it's the A shares that are being sold. I see nothing on B 106/175 with 100 shares at the ask. But the A's are really moving, $161k traded today so far on 1,598 shares. I'm seeing a 98/104 2x2 on the quote. Similar volume on 12/23, 11/14, and 10/31. Amazingly there has been a lot of volume on this recently SMAVG is 359. Now time to scrounge up some cash.. oddball you sure they haven't announced earnings? They are due for Q1, I'd wait for that before pulling the trigger.... Looks like the volume was phantom volume, I had an order in there, nothing filled. It was a good one as well, nothing... I haven't received the Q1 results yet, but maybe they're out, I'm not sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oddballstocks Posted January 9, 2015 Author Share Posted January 9, 2015 One other thing, this is a bit of a secret but I'll let it out. I've made a LOT of money on days like today for small dark companies. Often volume will show up out of nowhere and there will be no news. It's usually a panic seller, or an estate or something similar. On a number of different occasions I've backed up the truck and purchased as much as I could. In each case the price has bounced back to where it was quickly. In one case I doubled my money in a few days. This isn't a one-off occurrence, it happens regularly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Picasso Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 One other thing, this is a bit of a secret but I'll let it out. I've made a LOT of money on days like today for small dark companies. Often volume will show up out of nowhere and there will be no news. It's usually a panic seller, or an estate or something similar. On a number of different occasions I've backed up the truck and purchased as much as I could. In each case the price has bounced back to where it was quickly. In one case I doubled my money in a few days. This isn't a one-off occurrence, it happens regularly. How do you track large movements across all your stocks? Do you set alerts such as high volume versus averages or percentage swings? I don't watch the intraday movements across my holdings and I miss a lot of these swings because I felt my time is better spent digging into other investments. It seems like the illiquidity is your biggest friend here. The downside of course is the wide bid/ask spread even as the price is dropping or quickly rising. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oddballstocks Posted January 10, 2015 Author Share Posted January 10, 2015 One other thing, this is a bit of a secret but I'll let it out. I've made a LOT of money on days like today for small dark companies. Often volume will show up out of nowhere and there will be no news. It's usually a panic seller, or an estate or something similar. On a number of different occasions I've backed up the truck and purchased as much as I could. In each case the price has bounced back to where it was quickly. In one case I doubled my money in a few days. This isn't a one-off occurrence, it happens regularly. How do you track large movements across all your stocks? Do you set alerts such as high volume versus averages or percentage swings? I don't watch the intraday movements across my holdings and I miss a lot of these swings because I felt my time is better spent digging into other investments. It seems like the illiquidity is your biggest friend here. The downside of course is the wide bid/ask spread even as the price is dropping or quickly rising. Ironically I'm very low tech with keeping track of my portfolio. I log into Fidelity, sort by % change and scan to see if anything's moved by more than a few percentage points. I used to do this daily, it'd take maybe 10s. I wouldn't look at any prices, just a quick scan to see if something's moving. I probably check every other day now. On a big volume day the spread usually tightens, and if someone is truly desperate to sell they'll hit your bid. There are more shares to sell than buyers which is why the price falls so much. What often happens is this. Say a stock is at $20, there's a bid for 100 shares at $19.98, another 100 shares at $19.95, then 100 at $19 and 100 more at $17. So someone comes along and wants to sell 500 shares, it's going to drop to $17 right away, and that last 100 will go to whomever is lucky enough to place almost any bid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raaandy Posted January 10, 2015 Share Posted January 10, 2015 On a big volume day the spread usually tightens, and if someone is truly desperate to sell they'll hit your bid. There are more shares to sell than buyers which is why the price falls so much. What often happens is this. Say a stock is at $20, there's a bid for 100 shares at $19.98, another 100 shares at $19.95, then 100 at $19 and 100 more at $17. So someone comes along and wants to sell 500 shares, it's going to drop to $17 right away, and that last 100 will go to whomever is lucky enough to place almost any bid. In a non-panic-selloff kind of situation, how would you approach accumulating a position in this kind of illiquid stock? Would you just bid passively over the course of days/weeks/months until someone hit your bid, or just immediately lift reasonable-looking offers? thanks in advance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
randomep Posted April 15, 2015 Share Posted April 15, 2015 Anybody got the Q1 results? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mbrock77 Posted May 27, 2015 Share Posted May 27, 2015 Reposting radomep's question: anyone got Q1 yet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spekulatius Posted May 28, 2015 Share Posted May 28, 2015 Reposting radomep's question: anyone got Q1 yet? Yes here it is: https://www.proxydocs.com/0/000/888/926/hanover_foods_corp_05142015.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
randomep Posted May 28, 2015 Share Posted May 28, 2015 thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deadspace Posted May 28, 2015 Share Posted May 28, 2015 thanks! That's an impressive inventory build up Anyone see an explanation for this ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orthopa Posted May 29, 2015 Share Posted May 29, 2015 was going to post a new thread but thankfully found this one. Have some reading to do now. ;D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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