orthopa Posted May 30, 2015 Share Posted May 30, 2015 Read though a lot of stuff last night. Like what I see. No doubt there i value here. Is the thought just to sit and wait for the kids/grand kids to want to monetize their holdings? Im going to start putting some bids in this week. Just have bad visions of sitting on this for years as while the family works out their issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wachtwoord Posted January 26, 2016 Share Posted January 26, 2016 I had an extremely hard time getting a report. Ended up having to send them a scanned copy of a brokerage statement from IB, and asked them to send it. Haven't seen it yet. If someone does have one and can post it I would appreciate it. There is no rule against doing this, is there? That's unfortunately not all that hard considering some of the ropes a lot of these companies make people jump through. Sending in a brokerage is easy, so easy that I have JPG's saved on my desktop that I will email out as 'proof' when contacting a CFO via email the first time. I've had CFO's say they'll send something and never send anything. I've had to sign an NDA in the past (total BS), and I know people who've threatened legal action, and some who've undertaken it as well. A rule of thumb when a company wants you to sign an NDA they have something to hide. Most presume it's bad things they're hiding, this is maybe 70% of the cases. It's the 30% that are absolute gold mines, literally companies that own insanely valuable assets, strong earnings and are selling at multiples that are unbelievable. So making these reports public is not a requirement for a public company? They can request the SEC not to make their filings public? TIA Being public and filing with the SEC are two different things. A company can be public and not file, there are certain thresholds that need to be crossed before a company is legally required to become a filing entity. If they are a filing company then yes, they legally have to require annual reports and proxies. If a company is able to get their shareholder count below 300 (now 1500 with the JOBS act) they are not required to file with the SEC. Their shares might be traded on the OTC Market, and investors could be buying and selling daily, but the SEC filing burden is eliminated. What companies decide to show shareholders is up to them once they are 'dark' (non-SEC filing). There are certain legal requirements, like abiding by books and records requests, but many times they aren't legally required to file anything. There are all sorts of dark companies, some like Conrad are great, they publish their quarterly reports and annual reports on their website and on OTCMarkets. Then there are others like Walking Company Holdings that won't release anything but a tersely worded statement once a year, and finally companies like Avesis that require an NDA, which is total BS. <steps onto soapbox> Avesis really pissed me off, as an insurance company their financials are available on the NAIC website as required by law. They publish a proxy yearly that states their dividend and a few other puff facts. I went back and forth with the CFO because I wanted to know about their debt and liability structure. He said ALL financial information was private and he couldn't say a thing because competitors might take advantage. My second quibble is this, I have extensive insurance experience, especially in understanding some of the pricing and claims payment process. There is no way a competitor could gain an advantage by reading their summary financials. Their summary financials and subscriber information is on the NAIC website, and pricing isn't exactly the most hidden item out there. So I signed the NDA and the CFO answered the exact questions I asked. Then I asked more related to those and he said he couldn't say anything else unless I signed another NDA that specifically incorporated those questions into the form. I passed, the company is cheap, dirt cheap, but with slimeballs like that I wasn't interested in investing. I own five or ten shares I think ($20 worth). To top this all off, the NDA is illegal, under state law I have a legal right to view that information, I'm a part owner of the company, the NDA is unenforceable and a scare tactic. I had my revenge, I wrote a post on them, never named them, but shared what I'd learned, I'm sure you can find it via Google.</soapbox> Sorry for the wall of text, I have many other rants like this about POS dark companies that I've encountered. There are some that are mouth watering cheap but management is so horrible, greedy, and self serving, that if encountered in person I would keep one hand on my wallet at all times for fear that they'd try to lunge for it at the first chance they had. Slightly off-topic: I read through this topic because I'm interested in investing and came across this rant. It seems like Avesis was trying to hide extreme undervaluation as after a takeover offer the company is now trading more than 20 times higher than at the time off Nate's rant. A shame that you gave up on those slimeballs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oddballstocks Posted January 26, 2016 Author Share Posted January 26, 2016 Extreme undervaluation is right. I purchased a few dollars worth to become a shareholder and it's worth $160 or so now. It's a shame. I've seen this twice, Randall Bearings and Avesis. If a company is trading for 1x earnings or less I will be buying at least $1k worth from now on. Both have gone up 10-20x. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wachtwoord Posted February 20, 2016 Share Posted February 20, 2016 Q2 report http://www.proxydocs.com/0/000/973/434/hanover_cfs.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
randomep Posted February 20, 2016 Share Posted February 20, 2016 Extreme undervaluation is right. I purchased a few dollars worth to become a shareholder and it's worth $160 or so now. It's a shame. I've seen this twice, Randall Bearings and Avesis. If a company is trading for 1x earnings or less I will be buying at least $1k worth from now on. Both have gone up 10-20x. oddballstocks, how the heck did you find these companies? I know I know read your blog..... but can you just tell me specifically regarding these two? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
randomep Posted February 20, 2016 Share Posted February 20, 2016 Q2 report http://www.proxydocs.com/0/000/973/434/hanover_cfs.pdf thanks, just realized as I am no longer a shareholder I cannot get these anymore, I will depend on you guys from now on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wachtwoord Posted February 20, 2016 Share Posted February 20, 2016 Q2 report http://www.proxydocs.com/0/000/973/434/hanover_cfs.pdf thanks, just realized as I am no longer a shareholder I cannot get these anymore, I will depend on you guys from now on. No problem. Why did you sell your shares? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
randomep Posted February 21, 2016 Share Posted February 21, 2016 Q2 report http://www.proxydocs.com/0/000/973/434/hanover_cfs.pdf thanks, just realized as I am no longer a shareholder I cannot get these anymore, I will depend on you guys from now on. No problem. Why did you sell your shares? I bought at $120, sold at $95. I was attracted to the Price/Book = 1/3 ratio. But the ROE is just getting worse and worse, now at 2-3%. What I look for now is: PE < 10 price / book < 1 growing earnings management that gives a sh*t about shareholders The management doesn't seem to care that they aren't running the company well. If they did they would fire themselves and hire outsiders. I have other holding that match my criteria better. Who knows maybe I'll go back to it if it hits 60-70..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spekulatius Posted February 21, 2016 Share Posted February 21, 2016 I still own shares. I sold a few at around $120 and bought back some at ~$85. It remains to be seen if the value will ever be realized. We did have the changes in the trust, which were a positive, but I agree that a different management is needed to get more value from the existing business. At least the results are stable and not deteriorating, so I continue to hold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wachtwoord Posted February 21, 2016 Share Posted February 21, 2016 Q2 report http://www.proxydocs.com/0/000/973/434/hanover_cfs.pdf thanks, just realized as I am no longer a shareholder I cannot get these anymore, I will depend on you guys from now on. No problem. Why did you sell your shares? I bought at $120, sold at $95. I was attracted to the Price/Book = 1/3 ratio. But the ROE is just getting worse and worse, now at 2-3%. What I look for now is: PE < 10 price / book < 1 growing earnings management that gives a sh*t about shareholders The management doesn't seem to care that they aren't running the company well. If they did they would fire themselves and hire outsiders. I have other holding that match my criteria better. Who knows maybe I'll go back to it if it hits 60-70..... My buy price actually is at 85. Because of the shareholder unfriendliness I limit the relative size of the investment in my portfolio. It just look so cheap ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Eriksen Posted February 21, 2016 Share Posted February 21, 2016 Extreme undervaluation is right. I purchased a few dollars worth to become a shareholder and it's worth $160 or so now. It's a shame. I've seen this twice, Randall Bearings and Avesis. If a company is trading for 1x earnings or less I will be buying at least $1k worth from now on. Both have gone up 10-20x. oddballstocks, how the heck did you find these companies? I know I know read your blog..... but can you just tell me specifically regarding these two? I know Hanover and Randall Bearings are both stocks that were profiled in Walker's Manual, which profiled quality unlisted stocks. They don't publish anymore, so the most recent is the 2002-2003 edition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wachtwoord Posted March 22, 2016 Share Posted March 22, 2016 I can't find the annual report 2014 from june 2015 (the last annual report). Could someone please share it here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mbrock77 Posted May 11, 2016 Share Posted May 11, 2016 Q3: http://www.proxydocs.com/0/001/010/120/hanover_foods_cfs.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest notorious546 Posted May 14, 2016 Share Posted May 14, 2016 Extreme undervaluation is right. I purchased a few dollars worth to become a shareholder and it's worth $160 or so now. It's a shame. I've seen this twice, Randall Bearings and Avesis. If a company is trading for 1x earnings or less I will be buying at least $1k worth from now on. Both have gone up 10-20x. oddballstocks, how the heck did you find these companies? I know I know read your blog..... but can you just tell me specifically regarding these two? I know Hanover and Randall Bearings are both stocks that were profiled in Walker's Manual, which profiled quality unlisted stocks. They don't publish anymore, so the most recent is the 2002-2003 edition. Is there a new or competing publication on unlisted stocks now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mbrock77 Posted October 6, 2016 Share Posted October 6, 2016 Annual report out: http://www.proxydocs.com/0/001/058/733/hanover_foods_ar.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oddballstocks Posted October 6, 2016 Author Share Posted October 6, 2016 Extreme undervaluation is right. I purchased a few dollars worth to become a shareholder and it's worth $160 or so now. It's a shame. I've seen this twice, Randall Bearings and Avesis. If a company is trading for 1x earnings or less I will be buying at least $1k worth from now on. Both have gone up 10-20x. oddballstocks, how the heck did you find these companies? I know I know read your blog..... but can you just tell me specifically regarding these two? I know Hanover and Randall Bearings are both stocks that were profiled in Walker's Manual, which profiled quality unlisted stocks. They don't publish anymore, so the most recent is the 2002-2003 edition. Is there a new or competing publication on unlisted stocks now? There is nothing. I attempted to build a digital form myself in 2012 when there were more of these stocks. Here's why it doesn't make sense: 1) Information is hard to get. You need to spend hours sometimes working to get an annual report. Then working again each year to continue to receive data. 2) Financial data needs to be normalized and keyed into a system manually. Time consuming 3) The market for this is VERY small. Everyone wants it if it's free as a curiosity, but no one wants to pay. Put those things together and it's really hard to make money. Walkers didn't really make Eisenberg or Berger much. I believe both jammed libraries with copies as a way to boost circulation and revenue. Worked in the 90s, but not now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wachtwoord Posted October 7, 2016 Share Posted October 7, 2016 Annual report out: http://www.proxydocs.com/0/001/058/733/hanover_foods_ar.pdf Same old same old. Grew book value 3.74% and retired ~2k class B shares. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muscleman Posted October 7, 2016 Share Posted October 7, 2016 How would you compare this name with National Beef under LUK? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spekulatius Posted October 8, 2016 Share Posted October 8, 2016 How would you compare this name with National Beef under LUK? A closer comp would be Senea. National Beef is quite different and their earnings are more volatile. I think I feel more excitement watching the grass grow in my backyard than owning the stock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snow pea Posted December 23, 2016 Share Posted December 23, 2016 Q1 report attached. I don't know if there's anyone here following that doesn't already have it, but I know that before I started a position I was grateful to those who posted them.hanover_foods_qr.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulrich Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 I have a question to the long term holders. Why do you think that anybody would pay the book value in the far future for this business? The machines and property of the company give u a very low return on equity,so why would someone pay the stated book value with this low return? I like to invest in insurers or banks with stable.balance sheets because investment grade bonds etc. Are worth book in a liquidation case.but I see not that an other party would pay really the stated book value for hanover foods machines and propert with this low returns. The low returns could be a moat(same maybe with universal corp),because the low returns on new machines let no new players entry the market.but is it not mor reasonable to value hanover with price earnings,price cashflow and dividends as participation of the minor shareholders? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deadspace Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 I have a question to the long term holders. Why do you think that anybody would pay the book value in the far future for this business? The machines and property of the company give u a very low return on equity,so why would someone pay the stated book value with this low return? I like to invest in insurers or banks with stable.balance sheets because investment grade bonds etc. Are worth book in a liquidation case.but I see not that an other party would pay really the stated book value for hanover foods machines and propert with this low returns. The low returns could be a moat(same maybe with universal corp),because the low returns on new machines let no new players entry the market.but is it not mor reasonable to value hanover with price earnings,price cashflow and dividends as participation of the minor shareholders? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mbrock77 Posted March 12, 2017 Share Posted March 12, 2017 Did anyone receive their Q2 report? Did they just skip it this year? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wachtwoord Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 Did anyone receive their Q2 report? Did they just skip it this year? I didn't get anything. What date were you expecting it? (no time to check this minute). If it's far overdue I'll complain ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mbrock77 Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 Last year it came in mid-Feb and the quarter ended November 30. Not sure if that means it's technically late or not... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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