sdev Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 that keyboard cover seems brilliant. Could be a game changer. Admittedly surprised after reading about the features. If it doesn't turn out to be a bug-fest when it launches, I might find myself rooting for the underdog in this tablet space. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bargainman Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 I spent some time watching the event posted online today: http://news.cnet.com/8301-10805_3-57455851-75/microsoft-posts-video-of-surface-event-online It looks very interesting. The guy who talked about the design was interesting in a 'not very like Jon Ive' sort of way. Sounds like they put a lot of emphasis into making it feel solid. The hinges and the piece that folds out to make it stand apparently was engineered to sound like a car door closing and to be flush so the hinges don't show. Apparently they also have a vent all along all the edges so that the air can flow no matter where you hold it. Also the magnetic cover makes it so that you can not put it on wrong since it glides in correctly. When you move the keyboard/cover to the back, it knows it's disconnected and doesn't press keys. Also it looks like the pixels are supposed to be very close to the glass so they have a stylus which just clamps on magnetically when not in use, and samples at 600 dpi, meaning that when you write on the screen, since the pixels are so close, it really looks like you are writing where you are writing (if that makes sense). Anyway after that I was watching part of the apple wwdc event, and I must say... MSFT has a lot of work to do in putting together a polished presentation. Balmer and Sinofsky stumbled over their words a number of times, the tablet crashed, and the design guy, although passionate kept going on and on about how perfect it was and kept trying to hit you over the head with all the things they did with it to make it just perfect... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liberty Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 I wonder how a 16:9 screen ratio would feel vertically in the hands as a tablet. I think there's a reason the iPad isn't 16:9.. Intuitively, it seems like it would either feel too tall or too narrow.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bargainman Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 I wonder how a 16:9 screen ratio would feel vertically in the hands as a tablet. I think there's a reason the iPad isn't 16:9.. Intuitively, it seems like it would either feel too tall or too narrow.. Notice how the kickstand is in the landscape direction? one can imagine that most people will use it in landscape mode? I've never been a fan of the 16:9 format. It's annoying to have so much horizontal space that never gets used... it makes sense on a 24" monitor where I can stack 2 windows next to one another, but to have it on a tablet or a laptop doesn't make that much sense to me. After you look at the menu, the title bar, the toolbars, the ribbons, then the headers for most websites etc, everyone makes use of the vertical space, squishing whatever is left into nothingness... I'll stop my rant now... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liberty Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 I wonder how a 16:9 screen ratio would feel vertically in the hands as a tablet. I think there's a reason the iPad isn't 16:9.. Intuitively, it seems like it would either feel too tall or too narrow.. Notice how the kickstand is in the landscape direction? one can imagine that most people will use it in landscape mode? I've never been a fan of the 16:9 format. It's annoying to have so much horizontal space that never gets used... it makes sense on a 24" monitor where I can stack 2 windows next to one another, but to have it on a tablet or a laptop doesn't make that much sense to me. After you look at the menu, the title bar, the toolbars, the ribbons, then the headers for most websites etc, everyone makes use of the vertical space, squishing whatever is left into nothingness... I'll stop my rant now... That's the thing.. If you use it in landscape mode for things like PDFs and webpages, you have very little vertical space. If you use it in vertical mode but it feels like you're holding a miniature-TV on the wrong side or a legal document cut in half vertically, that won't feel quite right... Guess I'll have to wait and try one out in store when they are out (who knows when). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCG Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 If you use it in landscape mode for things like PDFs and webpages, you have very little vertical space. If you use it in vertical mode but it feels like you're holding a miniature-TV on the wrong side or a legal document cut in half vertically, that won't feel quite right... Exactly! I've been saying the same thing about Android tablets. Android tablets (& ice cream sandwich) are designed to be primarily used in landscape mode, and it looks like Microsoft is doing the same thing with Windows 8. This makes no sense to me. I use my iPad for often a couple hours a day, and I use it in portrait mode probably 99% of the time. Watching videos is really the only time I use it in landscape mode, and I don't use watch videos on it very often. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abcd Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 Isn't it possible that Microsoft can make this a really productive gadget by making all their software (Office Suite, SQL Server tools etc...) available on this? That way won't all the big corporations have an incentive to switch from Laptops (and desktops) to Surface? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liberty Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 That way won't all the big corporations have an incentive to switch from Laptops (and desktops) to Surface? What will the incentive be? Isn't a laptop or desktop a better choice for most businesses since most employees are sitting in the same place all day and a desktop is much more ergonomic and probably leads to higher productivity? And it's not like laptops aren't portable enough for most business use, and they tend to be more full-featured than tablets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abcd Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 I agree with you, in case of an employee who is showing up at desk everyday, tablet is not a choice. But all other types of employees (work from home, 24 hour support, high level executives who are on the move) tablet will be an easy choice to make for the same reasons that tablets are being used for checking email now over laptops. For the price of the tablet, I am getting a decent laptop now. If it is my money, I would rather buy a laptop to give my employees today rather than a tablet because I see tablet as close to useless when it comes to serious work. I feel Microsoft might narrow that gap (mainly because of their other productive software suites) with their tablet, which no other tablet maker can easily achieve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest valueInv Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 That way won't all the big corporations have an incentive to switch from Laptops (and desktops) to Surface? What will the incentive be? Isn't a laptop or desktop a better choice for most businesses since most employees are sitting in the same place all day and a desktop is much more ergonomic and probably leads to higher productivity? And it's not like laptops aren't portable enough for most business use, and they tend to be more full-featured than tablets. If that was true, why would laptop sales overtake desktops? Most people don't even need laptops in the first place. You would then see laptops form a small percentage of overall pc sales. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liberty Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 If that was true, why would laptop sales overtake desktops? Most people don't even need laptops in the first place. You would then see laptops form a small percentage of overall pc sales. We were talking about corporations, where I think the desktop still makes most sense. But even the laptop would make more sense there than a tablet, IMO (you can have a docking station, a bigger internal HDD and plug in external storage and peripherals more easily, etc). If you're sitting at a desk all day, the last think you want is to spend your day typing on a pancake keyboard attached to a smalls screen. But maybe it's just me... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abcd Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 I am referring to those people who are working for a corporate (of all sizes) who currently own some sort of an employer provided tablet, and I assume will grow in numbers over a period of time. So for those, I feel Microsoft has a better shot at making that device more productive than any other tablet maker. I understand there will be exceptions where certain people own these devices because they have to work with only iOS or Android. Also, my assumption is that Tablets will not be exclusively used for lightweight applications for the foreseeable future. If the primary use of tablets is to browse, read email and watch videos and is likely to stay that way, this announcement by Microsoft may not mean much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bargainman Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 Isn't it possible that Microsoft can make this a really productive gadget by making all their software (Office Suite, SQL Server tools etc...) available on this? That way won't all the big corporations have an incentive to switch from Laptops (and desktops) to Surface? Well that's one of the selling points if you read the announcement! Windows Office will be on these devices... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liberty Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 I am referring to those people who are working for a corporate (of all sizes) who currently own some sort of an employer provided tablet, and I assume will grow in numbers over a period of time. So for those, I feel Microsoft has a better shot at making that device more productive than any other tablet maker. I understand there will be exceptions where certain people own these devices because they have to work with only iOS or Android. Also, my assumption is that Tablets will not be exclusively used for lightweight applications for the foreseeable future. If the primary use of tablets is to browse, read email and watch videos and is likely to stay that way, this announcement by Microsoft may not mean much. Ah, if you mean this tablet as opposed to other tablets rather than as opposed to desktops/laptops, then yes, that sounds more plausible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bargainman Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 We were talking about corporations, where I think the desktop still makes most sense. But even the laptop would make more sense there than a tablet, IMO (you can have a docking station, a bigger internal HDD and plug in external storage and peripherals more easily, etc). If you're sitting at a desk all day, the last think you want is to spend your day typing on a pancake keyboard attached to a smalls screen. But maybe it's just me... Well I don't know about desktops making the most sense for corporations. Any meeting I go to these days is littered with laptops all connected to some conferencing software. If someone has a desktop they RDC into it all the time. Teams are distributed around the world, and when they travel they need their laptop with them, and that's in tech/engineering. Now for sales and marketing laptops are probably the only thing that makes sense vs desktops. WRT the tablet, well this is almost a full powered laptop with an i5 chip. The only underpowered aspects are screen size, SSD memory, and the keyboard potentially (although msft claims the thicker keyboard cover allows for full speed typing since the keys do have a millimeter or 2 of give). So... there's a USB 3.0 port - attach your keyboard, mouse, and extra hd if you need it. There's an SD port too so add memory at least up to 32gb if not more. There's a displayport (or HDMI, I forget), attach your nice 24" monitor! Unless you're doing something intensive like coding/video editing you now have the best of most worlds.. I say of most, since the small screen would still be worse than a 15" laptop screen for doing real work, but at least you have a 'real' keyboard on the go, and the stylus, and the tablet like nature.... it's relatively compelling... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bargainman Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 I am referring to those people who are working for a corporate (of all sizes) who currently own some sort of an employer provided tablet, and I assume will grow in numbers over a period of time. So for those, I feel Microsoft has a better shot at making that device more productive than any other tablet maker. I understand there will be exceptions where certain people own these devices because they have to work with only iOS or Android. Also, my assumption is that Tablets will not be exclusively used for lightweight applications for the foreseeable future. If the primary use of tablets is to browse, read email and watch videos and is likely to stay that way, this announcement by Microsoft may not mean much. These are interesting points. To me it's pretty interesting how Apple basically broke into this market by focusing on the consumer, and going after new form factors. I remember several times where Jobs saying that he wanted to focus on consumers where everyone voted their own wallet, as opposed to IT departments and enterprises where you had to convince some CTO/CIO to buy a bunch of machines. He said he wanted to infiltrate corporations from the consumer side. If consumers were using their devices eventually IT would be forced to adapt. That's basically what's come to pass. MSFT on the other hand is coming from the other side. They are very strong in the IT world. They're still strong in the consumer world, but not on new form factors (mobile/tablets). So they are trying to extend their reach from their core strength.. The enterprise, and in particular Office/Outlook/Sharepoint. It makes sense. IMO it's more compelling to an enterprise to have people on Windows Tablets than to have them on Android tablets. it will be interesting to see if that transfers over to Windows Phones to eventually. So far no go... That said I suspect that in IT these tablets will start to cannabalize the windows laptop sales.. Since they are essentially a replacement for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liberty Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 Yeah, I guess it depends what kind of business we're talking about. I had in mind someone like my wife who sits in the same cubicle all day and for whom a tablet would be a big step down in practicality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest valueInv Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 We were talking about corporations, where I think the desktop still makes most sense. But even the laptop would make more sense there than a tablet, IMO (you can have a docking station, a bigger internal HDD and plug in external storage and peripherals more easily, etc). If you're sitting at a desk all day, the last think you want is to spend your day typing on a pancake keyboard attached to a smalls screen. But maybe it's just me... Well I don't know about desktops making the most sense for corporations. Any meeting I got to these days is littered with laptops all connected to some conferencing software. If someone has a desktop they RDC into it all the time. Teams are distributed around the world, and when they travel they need their laptop with them, and that's in tech/engineering. Now for sales and marketing laptops are probably the only thing that makes sense vs desktops. Exactly, most jobs require meetings, at least some travel, allow at least some working from home ,etc. Laptops are more popular than desktops even in corporations. A tablet does not preclude a physical keyboard. In fact, Apple sells docking keyboards for iPads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest valueInv Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 I am referring to those people who are working for a corporate (of all sizes) who currently own some sort of an employer provided tablet, and I assume will grow in numbers over a period of time. So for those, I feel Microsoft has a better shot at making that device more productive than any other tablet maker. I understand there will be exceptions where certain people own these devices because they have to work with only iOS or Android. Also, my assumption is that Tablets will not be exclusively used for lightweight applications for the foreseeable future. If the primary use of tablets is to browse, read email and watch videos and is likely to stay that way, this announcement by Microsoft may not mean much. These are interesting points. To me it's pretty interesting how Apple basically broke into this market by focusing on the consumer, and going after new form factors. I remember several times where Jobs saying that he wanted to focus on consumers where everyone voted their own wallet, as opposed to IT departments and enterprises where you had to convince some CTO/CIO to buy a bunch of machines. He said he wanted to infiltrate corporations from the consumer side. If consumers were using their devices eventually IT would be forced to adapt. That's basically what's come to pass. MSFT on the other hand is coming from the other side. They are very strong in the IT world. They're still strong in the consumer world, but not on new form factors (mobile/tablets). So they are trying to extend their reach from their core strength.. The enterprise, and in particular Office/Outlook/Sharepoint. It makes sense. IMO it's more compelling to an enterprise to have people on Windows Tablets than to have them on Android tablets. it will be interesting to see if that transfers over to Windows Phones to eventually. So far no go... That said I suspect that in IT these tablets will start to cannabalize the windows laptop sales.. Since they are essentially a replacement for them. +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
txlaw Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 We were talking about corporations, where I think the desktop still makes most sense. But even the laptop would make more sense there than a tablet, IMO (you can have a docking station, a bigger internal HDD and plug in external storage and peripherals more easily, etc). If you're sitting at a desk all day, the last think you want is to spend your day typing on a pancake keyboard attached to a smalls screen. But maybe it's just me... Well I don't know about desktops making the most sense for corporations. Any meeting I got to these days is littered with laptops all connected to some conferencing software. If someone has a desktop they RDC into it all the time. Teams are distributed around the world, and when they travel they need their laptop with them, and that's in tech/engineering. Now for sales and marketing laptops are probably the only thing that makes sense vs desktops. WRT the tablet, well this is almost a full powered laptop with an i5 chip. The only underpowered aspects are screen size, SSD memory, and the keyboard potentially (although msft claims the thicker keyboard cover allows for full speed typing since the keys do have a millimeter or 2 of give). So... there's a USB 3.0 port - attach your keyboard, mouse, and extra hd if you need it. There's an SD port too so add memory at least up to 32gb if not more. There's a displayport (or HDMI, I forget), attach your nice 24" monitor! Unless you're doing something intensive like coding/video editing you now have the best of most worlds.. I say of most, since the small screen would still be worse than a 15" laptop screen for doing real work, but at least you have a 'real' keyboard on the go, and the stylus, and the tablet like nature.... it's relatively compelling... I've been watching the video as I work. The displayport feature is pretty compelling. At your desk, you have a large, high-res display set up plus mouse and keyboard, and you just connect your Surface to the setup. That will support most applications that people need to use, including Office and Photoshop. Then, if you need to go to a meeting or something, instead of undocking your laptop, you undock your Surface, which comes with a full keyboard which will allow you to do productivity tasks such as email or presentations while you're away from your desk. This is quite cool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bargainman Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 Exactly, most jobs require meetings, at least some travel, allow at least some working from home ,etc. Laptops are more popular than desktops even in corporations. A tablet does not preclude a physical keyboard. In fact, Apple sells docking keyboards for iPads. Right but the big difference is that the keyboard *is* the cover! That means it travels with you where ever you go! iPads don't currently come with this option. You can get something similar: http://www.logitech.com/en-us/tablet-accessories/keyboards/ultrathin-keyboard-cover but it's not part of the package (oh, and that one doesn't have a touchpad either, which you'd want when you're typing since you don't want to lift your hand up all the time to 'click' on things... Plus the touchpad presumably provides greater fidelity) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
txlaw Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 Good point about the touchpad, bargainman. I love my iPad, but I can't really do any presentation or spreadsheet work on it because there is no mouse/pointer interface. Surface would be great if I wanted to use, for example, Google Docs at a coffee shop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
txlaw Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 The major takeaway I'm getting from this video is that Surface is designed both for "content" consumption and "content" creation/work productivity. IMO, the iPad sucks for content creation and doing work. You really need a Macbook air if you want an ultraportable Mac to work on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSArbitrage Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 I don't really understand the laptop versus tablet debate. I think you have two converging form factors: the "ultrabook" and the tablet. Processors are getting so small, powerful and energy efficient that eventually we will have a single form factor that is an ultrabook/tablet hybrid. We are almost there as it is. For example, I have an iPad 2 and Macbook Air. The only difference is screen size, OS and keyboard. Eventually, there will probably be an OS that bridges the gap, screen size will increase when weight comes down and it seems MSFT is making fast headway on a tablet/ultrabook keyboard hybrid. So right now it's like old debate: will phones get mp3 players or will someone stick an mp3 player in a phone? It's just going to be a hybrid like the iPhone was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSArbitrage Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 As an aside, I won't comment on whether MST can execute but I like their direction here with combining the hardware/software design. I have always been concerned with their WP7 strategy of just making the software; I don't think that's the future of portable hardware. I think the Apple model is best for small consumer electronics. So here's hoping that MSFT continues the trend and buys Nokia like Google bought Motorola. Nokia is one of the best hardware makers on the planet; they'd really be pulling of a coup at these levels. I think EV is sub- $3B right now for Nokia. I think Google paid almost 4X that for Motorola and NOK is a much better company. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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