Atul Gawande on healthcare bill

[biaggio]

Testing, Testing

The health-care bill has no master plan for curbing costs. Is that a bad thing?

by Atul Gawande

 

 

Read more http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2009/12/14/091214fa_fact_gawande#ixzz1zhkb3xcD

[SouthernYankee]

"The year 1903 proved to be the most disastrous for cotton in a quarter century, because of the spread of the boll weevil. Nonetheless, at the end of the season Porter reported a substantial increase in profit, clearing an extra seven hundred dollars. He announced that he would apply the lessons he had learned to his entire, eight-hundred-acre property, and many other farmers did the same. Knapp had discovered a simple but critical rule for gaining coöperation: “What a man hears he may doubt, what he sees he may possibly doubt, but what he does himself he cannot doubt.”

 

2 things from the article (which I still have to finish): 1) it is from 2009, not sure why you would post such an old article 2) it seems as if this paragraph early on in the article gives a very simple motive for farmers to try new things: PROFIT!!! Where, oh where, in the United States discussion of health care, has the profit motive been discussed?? Profit, 100 years later, is a dirty word, when applied to someone's health.

 

I like this writer, and I still have to read the rest of the article. I'll also look for a rebuttal somewhere on the internet, this writer tends to a more leftist/liberal/government-centric way of thinking. I wonder if someone has already gone through his arguments.

 

Cheers.

 

 

 

[biaggio]

Sorry did not look at the date of article.

 

I forget how I got to it-thru some blog or news site. I assumed it was written recently-dumb.

 

 

[eclecticvalue]

Has anyone checked this out http://american.com/archive/2012/june/the-healthcare-myths-we-must-confront

[PlanMaestro]

An AEI article that does not share data and is all about "definitions"? On the line of their F&F-caused-the-subprime-crisis sleight of hand. Until proven otherwise, I'll keep them in the "political hacks" box.

 

http://capitalgainsandgames.com/blog/bruce-bartlett/1606/did-aei-muzzle-its-scholars

http://capitalgainsandgames.com/blog/bruce-bartlett/1605/donors-pushed-david-frum-out

http://www.frumforum.com/waterloo/

[eclecticvalue]

Interesting links planmaestro, its tough to find objectivity with an issue such as the healthcare bill. If anyone is interested check this course that is being offered for free, taught by Penn professor. https://www.coursera.org/course/healthpolicy

[SouthernYankee]

I agree it is tough to find objectivity, but people will find ways to do what is good for themselves. It is tough to change human nature.

 

http://dailycaller.com/2012/07/11/report-thousands-fled-canada-for-health-care-in-2011/

[mhdousa]

I agree it is tough to find objectivity, but people will find ways to do what is good for themselves. It is tough to change human nature.

 

http://dailycaller.com/2012/07/11/report-thousands-fled-canada-for-health-care-in-2011/

 

Seriously?  You follow up a statement like "It is tough to find objectivity" with a link to The Daily Caller.  A website started by Tucker f'ing Carlson. 

 

150,000 Americans went to Mexicali for healthcare last year.(https://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/28/health/mexicali-lures-american-tourists-with-medical-care.html).

 

650,000 Americans are estimated to have gone out of the country for healthcare in 2009. 

http://www.reuters.com/article/2009/10/28/us-medical-tourism-idUSTRE59R23V20091028

 

[SouthernYankee]

mhdousa,

 

In both of the articles you link to, it seems the free market is providing things that places with more government influence in that certain market CAN'T! I am not sure what you are trying to show. If 800,000 Americans had gone to Canada, I would definitely question my beliefs. BUT, when you show those Americans going to Mexico and Thailand, where there are less restrictions, mandates, and more of a profit motive, I have to THANK YOU for helping to prove my point!!

 

Cheers!

[PlanMaestro]

"Southern Yankee did have one post on investing.  He asked what is a short sale."

 

Going for a record?

 

 

mhdousa,

 

In both of the articles you link to, it seems the free market is providing things that places with more government influence in that certain market CAN'T! I am not sure what you are trying to show. If 800,000 Americans had gone to Canada, I would definitely question my beliefs. BUT, when you show those Americans going to Mexico and Thailand, where there are less restrictions, mandates, and more of a profit motive, I have to THANK YOU for helping to prove my point!!

 

Cheers!

[SouthernYankee]

Sorry, PlanMaestro, I am only a Full Member, as opposed to your Hero Member status. I feel a little bit like Oliver Twist, but may I have some more....of an explanation for what you posted? Thanks in advance.

 

If you disagree with what I wrote about those 2 articles, I promise I won't get upset. I'll simply let you know if I agree or disagree with your opinion, along with my reasons why.

 

Cheers!

[abcd]

mhdousa,

 

In both of the articles you link to, it seems the free market is providing things that places with more government influence in that certain market CAN'T! I am not sure what you are trying to show. If 800,000 Americans had gone to Canada, I would definitely question my beliefs. BUT, when you show those Americans going to Mexico and Thailand, where there are less restrictions, mandates, and more of a profit motive, I have to THANK YOU for helping to prove my point!!

 

Cheers!

 

So as per the Fraser Institute's survey quoted in the Daily Caller link 46,xxx Canadians sought medical help outside their country.

 

And as per the other two links posted by mhdousa, 150,000 Americans traveled to Mexicali and 650, 000 Americans will travel to Mexico to Thailand for health care needs.

 

If we arrange these countries in the degree of "free market providing things that places with more government influence in that certain market CAN'T"

 

Canada -> USA -> Mexico and other countries like Thailand, India etc...

 

Does that sound about right?

[SouthernYankee]

abcd,

 

So that we can relate it back to the articla first posted by biaggio, which pushed for small experiments around the whole country, I would say that countries which are LESS involved with the every-day decisions of their citizens regarding healthcare and the delivery of healthcare, are more likely to find ways of reducing costs and/or wait times. In that sense, I guess your list would look like Thailand>Mexico>U.S>Canada.

Of course, this does not speak to the quality of the medicine, it does not speak to new medical techniques/operations, and I am not advocating a Thailand-style healthcare system, which I know nothing about. My only argument, again, was as it relates to biaggio's original article for this post, I disagree with Gawande's likening to the ObamaTAX law to the beginnings of the USDA a century ago. The USDA started small, and did good things, but has since become another government division which uses force to accomplish political aims. It has taken to invading farms which sell raw milk, for pete's sake. The IRS will be the muscle for the ObamaTAX law.

In the original article, there was a profit motive for the farmer to try new things. There is no profit motive in the ObamaTAX law.

 

Cheers.

[abcd]

I am thinking Health Care industry has been given a lot of leverage with more than enough Profit Motive the last so many years and yet the situation has only worsened.

 

It may be time to do something rather than sit by and watch the consequences. I understand what is being proposed is not well liked. Sometimes making it worse may motivate powerful people to work closer and address the issues.

 

Coming to the tax part of the act, If I were targeted by this tax, I will not sympathize with myself for being taxed. As of now, I am forced to take automobile insurance, though I am not destroying someone's property everyday and I am not complaining about this.

 

And as far as the number of peolpe traveling to get services outside, I think it is their personal finances that is driving this rather than which country's government is more intrusive on their health care systems. I believe a lot of people from India are travelling to Europe or Noth America just because they can afford it and don't want to take a chance in their own country.

 

Similarly I would speculate a lot of the 46, xxx Canadians would have travelled because they are rich and can afford it. I would also speculate that if every american is treated like a candian by Canadian Health Care system, millions of americans will drive to Canada to get the services (despite the presence of a socialized system).