Palantir Posted October 1, 2012 Share Posted October 1, 2012 This is unfortunately a sector I'm not that knowledgeable about. That being said, this firm has a respected management team, looks undervalued (trading below book), and they've aggressively bought back shares, 25% over the past five years, any thoughts on this firm, or reason for undervaluation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rimm_never_sleeps Posted October 1, 2012 Share Posted October 1, 2012 a lot of the insurance sector trades under book. in that sense it trades mostly in line with the group. this stock is probably priced to return about 10% annually imo. however, I believe they are open to liquidating/selling. as such it's a good holding to have in this kind of market. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest hellsten Posted October 1, 2012 Share Posted October 1, 2012 WTM has a great and very interesting history. All who are interested in value investing should read about WTM's history. WTM made some mistakes in the last 10 years and the CEO apologized publicly. I sold it when it approached book value. Buffett has sold. Not much interest in the company. I think they will do better than the index. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yours Truly Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 WTM has a great and very interesting history. All who are interested in value investing should read about WTM's history. WTM made some mistakes in the last 10 years and the CEO apologized publicly. I sold it when it approached book value. Buffett has sold. Not much interest in the company. I think they will do better than the index. Is WTM really a Buffett investment? or simply a Lou Simpson one? which is still good but.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racemize Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 WTM has a great and very interesting history. All who are interested in value investing should read about WTM's history. WTM made some mistakes in the last 10 years and the CEO apologized publicly. I sold it when it approached book value. Buffett has sold. Not much interest in the company. I think they will do better than the index. Is WTM really a Buffett investment? or simply a Lou Simpson one? which is still good but.... I thought Lou Simpson opened his own fund--isn't this Jack Bryne or one of his old insurance guys? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcollon Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 Lou Simpson runs SQ Advisors now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rimm_never_sleeps Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 it was a Buffett investment, which he has long since sold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest hellsten Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 HAMILTON, Bermuda, Feb. 5, 2013 /PRNewswire/ -- White Mountains Insurance Group, Ltd. (NYSE: WTM) reported adjusted book value per share of $588 at December 31, 2012, up 2.4% for the quarter and 8.6% for the year, including dividends. Ray Barrette, Chairman and CEO, commented, "It was a productive year. Investments had a good year with a GAAP total return of 4.9%. OneBeacon finished the year at a 98% GAAP combined ratio, somewhat disappointing even when adjusting for hurricane Sandy claims, though the underlying loss ratio remains solid. Sirius Group reported a full year GAAP combined ratio of 90%, a pleasant result given the magnitude of hurricane Sandy and crop losses. BAM, the new muni bond insurer we funded, is getting traction in the marketplace. The regulatory review of the agreement to sell the OneBeacon runoff is proceeding as expected. We had $76 million in net tax gains in the quarter, mostly from the reduction in the Swedish corporate tax rate, and we successfully protected the value of our foreign tax assets from other changes in Swedish tax laws. We returned $676 million of capital to shareholders, mostly by buying 18% of our beginning shares outstanding at attractive prices. We do not see major business improvements in the near term, as most insurance markets remain quite competitive, new capital is entering the profitable property-cat market, interest rates remain quite low, risk spreads are thin, equities have had a good run and every opportunity continues to be chased by a world full of cash. We remain defensively positioned and in good shape in all areas. We have roughly $1 billion of undeployed capital, and we are actively pursuing potential transactions." http://investor.whitemountains.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=103286&p=IROL-NewsText&ID=1781420&highlight= Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buylowersellhigh Posted May 2, 2013 Share Posted May 2, 2013 Anybody looking at WTM? Book value at $606. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palantir Posted May 2, 2013 Author Share Posted May 2, 2013 P/BV is low, but the BVPS compounding doesnt look impressive unless we're expecting near term growth to continue apace... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muscleman Posted May 2, 2013 Share Posted May 2, 2013 This is not trading at an attractive discount...... Why consider this when you can buy AIG? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
james22 Posted October 17, 2017 Share Posted October 17, 2017 White Mountains Insurance: Defensive Posture At A Slight Discount White Mountains should be on investors’ radar screens, as it appears to be an excellent contrarian bet for a down market. With most of its equity invested in cash and short-duration fixed-maturity investments, the company is prepared to allocate capital when potential returns look more attractive. ... While I dipped my toe in the water a few weeks ago at $850/share, I would not necessarily be an aggressive buyer here... Rather, I would keep the company in mind if there’s a significant market pullback. Given the composition of the balance sheet, if WTM gets caught up in an indiscriminate general sell-off, investors may see an opportunity to buy a company sitting on significant amounts of dry powder at a sizable discount to book value, with a management team dedicated to increasing the value to shareholders. The only catch to this mini-Berkshire (BRK.A, BRK.B) is that the real deal exists and may ultimately be a better option in a storm. https://seekingalpha.com/article/4112043-white-mountains-insurance-defensive-posture-slight-discount Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Txvestor Posted October 17, 2017 Share Posted October 17, 2017 White Mountains Insurance: Defensive Posture At A Slight Discount White Mountains should be on investors’ radar screens, as it appears to be an excellent contrarian bet for a down market. With most of its equity invested in cash and short-duration fixed-maturity investments, the company is prepared to allocate capital when potential returns look more attractive. ... While I dipped my toe in the water a few weeks ago at $850/share, I would not necessarily be an aggressive buyer here... Rather, I would keep the company in mind if there’s a significant market pullback. Given the composition of the balance sheet, if WTM gets caught up in an indiscriminate general sell-off, investors may see an opportunity to buy a company sitting on significant amounts of dry powder at a sizable discount to book value, with a management team dedicated to increasing the value to shareholders. The only catch to this mini-Berkshire (BRK.A, BRK.B) is that the real deal exists and may ultimately be a better option in a storm. https://seekingalpha.com/article/4112043-white-mountains-insurance-defensive-posture-slight-discount Agree a good conservative bet. Another good thing here is Management. They are demonstrably more interested in growing intrinsic value per share rather than empire building. They have bought back a crazy number of shares in recent years. They just completed a Dutch tender at $875. With that a r cent pullback into the $850 range when the Hurricanes hit was plenty good enough for me to add. They have bought tons of shares at well under book value, much of that in the 400s/500s/600s. They have in addition sold some subsidiaries at well over book value. They are most certainly positioned for a downturn and they are a good defensive play. Ray Barrette’s retirement is a bit of a concern but I don’t see anything new in the approach of the successor. The BV remains above the current share price and I beleove the IV to be atleast another 10-20% more that that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
no_free_lunch Posted October 18, 2017 Share Posted October 18, 2017 Following it too. Excellent long-term history. I found some commentary on another thread where people were concerned about the management, although perhaps that management is now out the door. My only real issue is I already have so much in insurance companies. EDIT: This was the thread I was referring to above. http://www.cornerofberkshireandfairfax.ca/forum/general-discussion/wtm/msg402/#msg402 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
james22 Posted October 21, 2017 Share Posted October 21, 2017 Good discussion thread: http://boards.fool.com/tender-offer-32837487.aspx?sort=whole Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
no_free_lunch Posted November 16, 2017 Share Posted November 16, 2017 Found this in WTM's latest quarterly report: During the third quarter of 2017, White Mountains repurchased and retired 821,842 of its common shares for $715 million at an average price per share of $870, or approximately 96% of White Mountains's September 30, 2017 adjusted book value per share. They repurchased roughly 1/6 of their outstanding shares just in the last quarter. Price today is the same as their average purchase price. I have opened a position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valuehalla Posted December 16, 2017 Share Posted December 16, 2017 What's happened to WTM? There was a time that WTM was thought of in the same high quality insurer/reinsurance group as MKL, Y, etc Would anyone put ACGL in that group? White mountain is a completely different company than its been for the past few decades. Their management team is entirely gone, their longetime CEO Ray Barrette resigned in 2017 along with the CFO I believe. They were replaced by long-standing executives who should most likely have the same values, but still... different management team. They have exited all of their insurance operations, most recently selling their stake in One Beacon. What's left is essentially a pile of cash, a few small businesses, and a new management team. So it is no longer the same company as it was when it was thought of as a high quality insurer. It is trading around BV though I believe. Anyone here has an opinion on WTM ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valuehalla Posted December 16, 2017 Share Posted December 16, 2017 I have a position in WTM but yes it is hard to justify much of a premium over book. Basically a SPAC at this point. I am in there due to the dearth of opportunities and I see it as a decent cash alternative. I am hoping some of their culture rubbed off on new management. It is not a big position for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valuehalla Posted December 16, 2017 Share Posted December 16, 2017 There is a WTM press release from 16th Nov that they have done a partnership to invest money: http://investor.whitemountains.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=103286&p=IROL-NewsText&ID=2317428 What do you think about that move ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
no_free_lunch Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 This is sitting at a 52 week low or about 90% of TBV. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
no_free_lunch Posted February 9, 2018 Share Posted February 9, 2018 Earnings came out a few days ago. Not much change but it is now at 85% of adjusted book now. I feel the discount is unwarranted given their track record and the fact that management takes advantage of low share price via share repurchases. Actually I think a significant part of the bvps gains over the last few years have come from below book share purchases. http://www.whitemountains.com/PDF/WTM_4Q17_Earnings_Release.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BPCAP Posted February 9, 2018 Share Posted February 9, 2018 Really don’t like the municipal bond business...picking up pennies in front of a steamroller. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
james22 Posted April 2, 2018 Share Posted April 2, 2018 White Mountains to acquire a majority stake in NSM Insurance Group https://seekingalpha.com/news/3343058-white-mountains-acquire-majority-stake-nsm-insurance-group It's something, anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
james22 Posted April 10, 2018 Share Posted April 10, 2018 White Mountains Insurance Group, Ltd. (WTM) announced today that it intends to commence a "modified Dutch auction" self-tender offer to purchase 500,000 of its common shares, or such lesser number of its common shares as are properly tendered and not properly withdrawn, at a purchase price of not greater than $875 or less than $825 per share, net to the seller in cash. The tender offer is expected to commence on April 10, 2018 and expire at 12:00 midnight, New York City time, at the end of the day on May 7, 2018, unless extended. White Mountains's common shares closed on the New York Stock Exchange at $806.17 per share on April 9, 2018. https://finance.yahoo.com/news/white-mountains-commence-self-tender-100000038.html $858, +6.5% Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
james22 Posted April 11, 2018 Share Posted April 11, 2018 Where's the love? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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