constructive Posted January 9, 2013 Share Posted January 9, 2013 It is not intelligent to short any stocks, even a fraud. It is a better way to make money by investing in BRK. COSTCO or GEICO and other businesses that provide meaningful services to the world. Charlie Munger Quote:" You are fighting a pig in the mud. You both get dirty, but the pig enjoys it." But if you look at it another way, shorting stocks can provide negative cost float, just like selling insurance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Dazel Posted January 9, 2013 Share Posted January 9, 2013 http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/30/business/worldbusiness/30iht-norris31.1.17372644.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0 This the modern day "Northern Railway" lesson that Buffett always refers to....if you will remember the gentlemen billionaire that jumped in front of a train...over the Volkswagen short. When you are already rich why put yourself there? "ego" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phaceliacapital Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 http://www.nypost.com/p/news/business/loeb_mackdown_ytWzxGO80hoVPTJTXJX5UN?source=email_rt_mc_body Supposedly Icahn joined the long side Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
returnonmycapital Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 In a high unemployment environment, do you really think this administration will go hard against the MLM industry, which is made up of self-employed lower-middle class constituents for the most part, to benefit a hedge fund manager's short position? The vast majority of people who have been involved with Herbalife have lost money. The company claims that anyone who loses money is really a customer (not a distributor), but the truth is there are millions of failed distributors. They lose money because they did not execute on the distribution...an actual effort has to be made on the system package material provided to new distributors. A similar argument could be made that some universities are ponzi schemes...students pay fees to attend the university and receive their degree. What if the student has paid fees for four years, fails some of their courses and does not receive a degree? Should the educational institution be categorized as a "ponzi scheme" because the student lost money? Ironically, what about failed hedge fund managers...should their businesses be deemed ponzi schemes? As they charge 2&20 fees on other people's money, run aground, and then close their funds after realizing they will be a long ways from receiving another incentive fee. But they are at the top of the pyramid and run away with all of the fees they've generated over the years. I like Ackman some of the time, but his hypocrisy stinks big time on this one...that Target fund was one of the stupidest things any hedge fund manager has done in some time and his investors lost a bundle. Cheers! Excellent commentary on hedge fund managers... and Ackman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
berkshiremystery Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 It is not intelligent to short any stocks, even a fraud. It is a better way to make money by investing in BRK. COSTCO or GEICO and other businesses that provide meaningful services to the world. Charlie Munger Quote:" You are fighting a pig in the mud. You both get dirty, but the pig enjoys it." Damn,... I did even lurk at BronteCapital's blog after years,... because somebody here in the other HLF thread did mention it,... LOL He has similar words as Munger.... This is the hedge-fund equivalent of Stalingrad. Someone is going to lose big. And the victor will be so bloodied that the word victory will sound hollow... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
berkshiremystery Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 http://www.nypost.com/p/news/business/loeb_mackdown_ytWzxGO80hoVPTJTXJX5UN?source=email_rt_mc_body Supposedly Icahn joined the long side Icahn might have joined Loeb on the long side. “It’s going to be an Ackman sandwich,” one hedge fund manager wailed. ------- So judging from online news/blogs/etc... it's essentially Loeb/Hempton vs Ackman/Chapman and everything rests on whether the government will take action or not Of those 4, Ackman is the only one short. Whoops my error, Chapman is long HLF and is a 35% position Herbalife: Why I Made It a 35% Position after the Bill Ackman Bear Raid 2013-01-01 http://thompsonburton.com/mlmattorney/2013/01/01/herbalife-why-i-made-it-a-35-position-after-the-bill-ackman-bear-raid/ ------ Some interesting old article,... Dated July 2000 Robert Chapman @ WSJ.com In 2000, Chapman Capital was an activist versus Herbalife following the death of Herbalife’s founder Mark Hughes 2000-07-19 https://m.box.com/view_custom/thompsonburton/chapmancapital https://dl.boxcloud.com/bc/1/bd7f1525c43c390f286792b9a049b5e0/JolueqOGpciD6dgYhecNBoVpYxkvmYe1ZLheZor6BF4DUBIelMQTkFwYIys3nIibNIIEHUp447tBZLaXDzIbNQ,,/a565f18696edf9a0ceef05fcc7e91ab6/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
constructive Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 It is not intelligent to short any stocks, even a fraud. It is a better way to make money by investing in BRK. COSTCO or GEICO and other businesses that provide meaningful services to the world. Charlie Munger Quote:" You are fighting a pig in the mud. You both get dirty, but the pig enjoys it." Damn,... I did even lurk at BronteCapital's blog after years,... because somebody here in the other HLF thread did mention it,... LOL He has similar words as Munger.... This is the hedge-fund equivalent of Stalingrad. Someone is going to lose big. And the victor will be so bloodied that the word victory will sound hollow... Of course, there's probably no truth at all to that quote. I expect both Ackman and Loeb will make plenty of money on this trade, since they both had good entry points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ragnarisapirate Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 If Icahn has really come in to this trade, it almost seems that this could be one of the highest profile debates that we have had in a while- surely in terms of amount of total capital controlled by 3 hedge guys. In regards to the pig rolling in the mud, are we so certain that Ackman doesn't enjoy this sort of fight? For most, I would say that a fight isn't worth it, but that may not be the case for Ackman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enoch01 Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 In regards to the pig rolling in the mud, are we so certain that Ackman doesn't enjoy this sort of fight? For most, I would say that a fight isn't worth it, but that may not be the case for Ackman. Read "Confidence Game". I would say Ackman thoroughly enjoys this sort of thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zippy1 Posted January 12, 2013 Share Posted January 12, 2013 Wow! This even makes it to NPR! http://www.npr.org/2013/01/11/169172202/hedge-fund-titans-bet-billions-on-success-or-failure-of-herbalife pair of prominent hedge fund managers have taken opposing positions on the nutritional-supplement company Herbalife. Bill Ackman of Pershing Square Capital Management says the multilevel-marketing company is a pyramid scheme and a bad investment. He's shorting the stock. Dan Loeb of hedge fund Third Point says Herbalife is a good investment. He's taken an 8.2 percent stake in the company and is betting that its shares will rise. Melissa Block talks with David Kestenbaum of the Planet Money team Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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