ERICOPOLY Posted November 2, 2015 Share Posted November 2, 2015 Can I ask a stupid question here? Another stupid question I guess. Why hasn't Valeant published the full manual if it's being quoted out of context? Not that Valeant is expected to be forthright at this point after we've seen what a "standard collections dispute" looks like... but if they'd just go ahead and put the manual on their website it would settle all this speculation. We would either see a stock ticker in the green or orange jumpsuits. At least it would speed things along. It's a Philidor manual not a VRX one. They didn't write it. Don't own it and probably can't publish it. Yes but Philidor can do so. Philidor has no incentive to try to keep the ball rolling, clear the air? It's just no skin off their backs to immediately terminate their business? How weird is that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ERICOPOLY Posted November 2, 2015 Share Posted November 2, 2015 It feels like Philidor put itself through the document shredder. That whole episode is just strange -- is there a precedent yet for a company to destroy itself when, as FatBaboon says, let's wait for an investigation and fact finding while reserving judgement? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jay21 Posted November 2, 2015 Share Posted November 2, 2015 Can I ask a stupid question here? Another stupid question I guess. Why hasn't Valeant published the full manual if it's being quoted out of context? Not that Valeant is expected to be forthright at this point after we've seen what a "standard collections dispute" looks like... but if they'd just go ahead and put the manual on their website it would settle all this speculation. We would either see a stock ticker in the green or orange jumpsuits. At least it would speed things along. It's a Philidor manual not a VRX one. They didn't write it. Don't own it and probably can't publish it. Yes but Philidor can do so. Philidor has no incentive to try to keep the ball rolling, clear the air? It's just no skin off their backs to immediately terminate their business? How weird is that? When no one will do business with you, its pretty easy to just close down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ERICOPOLY Posted November 2, 2015 Share Posted November 2, 2015 Can I ask a stupid question here? Another stupid question I guess. Why hasn't Valeant published the full manual if it's being quoted out of context? Not that Valeant is expected to be forthright at this point after we've seen what a "standard collections dispute" looks like... but if they'd just go ahead and put the manual on their website it would settle all this speculation. We would either see a stock ticker in the green or orange jumpsuits. At least it would speed things along. It's a Philidor manual not a VRX one. They didn't write it. Don't own it and probably can't publish it. Yes but Philidor can do so. Philidor has no incentive to try to keep the ball rolling, clear the air? It's just no skin off their backs to immediately terminate their business? How weird is that? When no one will do business with you, its pretty easy to just close down. Do they have no legal recourse against a company for refusing to work with them? Play the devils advocate and the allegations are untrue -- a false rumor is spread in the newspaper, your partners distance themselves from you and sever ties, and you just unwind. That's it. Let's say for example that you slander a company and it hurts their business to the point that they have no business left. What's the normal response from the company that you slander? Do you expect no response from them other than what you characterize as the easy one, to just close down? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ERICOPOLY Posted November 2, 2015 Share Posted November 2, 2015 It's basically why I'd like to know who the investors are that owned Philador. The rapid agreement to unwind without any noise sounds like they are doing what's best for Valeant -- what a bunch of sweet guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ourkid8 Posted November 2, 2015 Share Posted November 2, 2015 Ackman put together the list of believed to be investors on his deck and once the investigation of Pilidor is complete, we will have our answers. http://assets.pershingsquareholdings.com/2014/09/Investor-Call-re-Valeant-Pharmaceuticals.pdf (Footnote on page 13) It's basically why I'd like to know who the investors are that owned Philador. The rapid agreement to unwind without any noise sounds like they are doing what's best for Valeant -- what a bunch of sweet guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
merkhet Posted November 2, 2015 Share Posted November 2, 2015 As a side note, Glenn, one of our CoBF members, received a shout out in Matt Levine's post today. http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2015-11-02/limit-up-kamikazes-and-private-justice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mertons_opus Posted November 2, 2015 Share Posted November 2, 2015 It's basically why I'd like to know who the investors are that owned Philador. The rapid agreement to unwind without any noise sounds like they are doing what's best for Valeant -- what a bunch of sweet guys. According to Pershing Square: Based on a June 18, 2013 license application with the Pennsylvania State Board of Pharmacy. Other owners are believed to be: Matthew Davenport, David Wing, Edward John Carne III, Gregory Blaszczynski, End Game Partnership LP, David Cowen, Elizabeth Kardos, Nick (Nicholas) Spuhler, David Ostrow, Jeffrey Gottesman, Gina Milner, Fabien Forrester-Charles, Francis Jennings, Michael Ostrow, Paula and Timothy Schuler and Gretchen Sprigg Wisehart. Most of them have profiles on Linkedin. Some of them are rather interesting, e.g. Gretchen Sprigg Wisehart (Chief Counsel Commonwealth of Pennsylvania Department of Revenue April 2014 – May 2015 (1 year 2 months)) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ERICOPOLY Posted November 2, 2015 Share Posted November 2, 2015 I suppose they could have told Philador that if they try to resist an immediate wind-down, "we'll just exercise our option and shut it down". So resistance is futile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ourkid8 Posted November 2, 2015 Share Posted November 2, 2015 If they exercised their option, they would potentially be liable for any fraud committed within Philidor/R&O. This is the best outcome as VRX should be sufficiently insulated. I suppose they could have told Philador that if they try to resist an immediate wind-down, "we'll just exercise our option and shut it down". So resistance is futile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ourkid8 Posted November 2, 2015 Share Posted November 2, 2015 My question is where are all the open market insider buys?!? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sswan11 Posted November 2, 2015 Share Posted November 2, 2015 Munger on VRX: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-11-01/munger-isn-t-done-bashing-valeant-after-months-of-holding-nose Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sswan11 Posted November 2, 2015 Share Posted November 2, 2015 Today's Citron update: http://www.citronresearch.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/Valeant-last-word-final-a.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phaceliacapital Posted November 2, 2015 Share Posted November 2, 2015 I thought Ackman mentioned on the call that they would release their model on the website, anyone else heard this too? If yes, did you see it? I can't seem to find it.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ERICOPOLY Posted November 2, 2015 Share Posted November 2, 2015 Today's Citron update: http://www.citronresearch.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/Valeant-last-word-final-a.pdf Those photos on the top of the third page are amusing at least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ourkid8 Posted November 2, 2015 Share Posted November 2, 2015 Thank God, they could not find any additional dirt and guaranteed they were lawyered up on their response and whatever BS they initially found was deemed BS. Now let's get down to business. Is Valeant going to call some debt or repurchase shares at these prices? Today's Citron update: http://www.citronresearch.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/Valeant-last-word-final-a.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phaceliacapital Posted November 2, 2015 Share Posted November 2, 2015 The cafepharma messaging board is not very reassuring.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jay21 Posted November 2, 2015 Share Posted November 2, 2015 Thank God, they could not find any additional dirt and guaranteed they were lawyered up on their response and whatever BS they initially found was deemed BS. Now let's get down to business. Is Valeant going to call some debt or repurchase shares at these prices? Today's Citron update: http://www.citronresearch.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/Valeant-last-word-final-a.pdf Is there any investigation of Philidor? Is there proof of illegal behavior? I may have missed it in all the noise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ourkid8 Posted November 2, 2015 Share Posted November 2, 2015 Valeant is having an internal investigation of Philidor and once that is complete, we will find out the truth instead of all the "noise" we are hearing... Thank God, they could not find any additional dirt and guaranteed they were lawyered up on their response and whatever BS they initially found was deemed BS. Now let's get down to business. Is Valeant going to call some debt or repurchase shares at these prices? Today's Citron update: http://www.citronresearch.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/Valeant-last-word-final-a.pdf Is there any investigation of Philidor? Is there proof of illegal behavior? I may have missed it in all the noise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Picasso Posted November 2, 2015 Share Posted November 2, 2015 The cafepharma messaging board is not very reassuring.. I noticed reporters are joining the message board to get more information from certain posters. Fun times over there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jay21 Posted November 2, 2015 Share Posted November 2, 2015 Valeant is having an internal investigation of Philidor and once that is complete, we will find out the truth instead of all the "noise" we are hearing... Thank God, they could not find any additional dirt and guaranteed they were lawyered up on their response and whatever BS they initially found was deemed BS. Now let's get down to business. Is Valeant going to call some debt or repurchase shares at these prices? Today's Citron update: http://www.citronresearch.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/Valeant-last-word-final-a.pdf Is there any investigation of Philidor? Is there proof of illegal behavior? I may have missed it in all the noise. But no authorities (except maybe California? I thought I read they weren't even sure if it was legal to backdoor into CA)? It seems there is clear proof for using different IDs, not having certain licenses, etc. so why hasn't any legal authority commented? It's weird. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rb Posted November 2, 2015 Share Posted November 2, 2015 But no authorities (except maybe California? I thought I read they weren't even sure if it was legal to backdoor into CA)? It seems there is clear proof for using different IDs, not having certain licenses, etc. so why hasn't any legal authority commented? It's weird. Authorities move a little slower than the internet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Picasso Posted November 2, 2015 Share Posted November 2, 2015 An interesting comment on a blog I don't like mentioning. Sounds legitimate but who knows. I work in Aerospace & Defense. One of my many duties involves dealing with government auditors. Friday, the auditors asked whether our health plans pay for Valeant drugs. I'm not sure how to answer that loaded question. The answer is yes, currently, but the auditors will want a more comprehensive response which relieves the government of potential embarrassment for reimbursing expenses paid to crooks. It looks to me that we will have to have to redesign our PBM's formulary. I can't say that breaks my heart, but it sure is a pain in the ass. Put yourself in my position. I have to defend Valeant's price gouging in audits of actual costs while simultaneously telling the government that we contain costs in every way. Guess who we will be throwing under the bus with prescription drug benefit design changes effective 1/1/2016? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmlber Posted November 2, 2015 Share Posted November 2, 2015 But no authorities (except maybe California? I thought I read they weren't even sure if it was legal to backdoor into CA)? It seems there is clear proof for using different IDs, not having certain licenses, etc. so why hasn't any legal authority commented? It's weird. Authorities move a little slower than the internet. Or they did nothing illegal. That's still equally likely in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Picasso Posted November 2, 2015 Share Posted November 2, 2015 I don't understand how investors want to give Valeant the benefit of the doubt on this one. It's like Stockholm Syndrome between investors and Pearson. He's raked the shareholders over the coals and he's still got your support. It's weird the power the guy has over other investors. Sequoia would rather lose two directors and face redemptions than admit the thesis had changed and the risk was too high. Just bizarre. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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