TSLA - Tesla Motors

[boilermaker75]

The Bolt goes 200 miles on one charge.

 

I don't trust GM products or its customer service.

It may not be the same GM from 10 years ago but it will take a lot for me to change my opinion of GM from decades of poor quality.

 

Count me in the group of wait and see for the first couple of years. I'd love a Tesla but don't want a first production run.

 

Of course in a couple of years I may be in the position to buy a Model S.

 

Exactly my thinking. It is highly likely my next care is the model 3, if my 13 year old Passat can make it!

[CorpRaider]

Excuse me; Did they just (in less than 24 hours) get $200MM floated in deposits for a car that is over a year away?

[Picasso]

Excuse me; Did they just (in less than 24 hours) get $200MM floated in deposits for a car that is over a year away?

 

Half of which happened when no one even saw the car yet.

[CorpRaider]

Sheesh.  Suddenly, I feel like I want to gnaw my arm off to get out of my GM-WTBs (I've probably felt like that for a while).  ;D  Is this how a BBRY shareholder felt when they saw people line up for the first iphone launch?

[rkbabang]

The Bolt goes 200 miles on one charge.

 

I don't trust GM products or its customer service.

It may not be the same GM from 10 years ago but it will take a lot for me to change my opinion of GM from decades of poor quality.

 

^^ This +100!

 

I've owned 1 Chevy in my life and I swore that I would never own another.  And I never will.  Yes that was in the 1980's, but a car is too large a purchase to take that chance.  I don't even follow GM or look at what they are doing, because I don't care.  I also think about GM rounding up all the EV1's and crushing them.  It is a company, like Chrysler, that should have been allowed to die when the market had spoken.

 

 

[boilermaker75]

The Bolt goes 200 miles on one charge.

 

I don't trust GM products or its customer service.

It may not be the same GM from 10 years ago but it will take a lot for me to change my opinion of GM from decades of poor quality.

 

^^ This +100!

 

I've owned 1 Chevy in my life and I swore that I would never own another.  And I never will.  Yes that was in the 1980's, but a car is too large a purchase to take that chance.  I don't even follow GM or look at what they are doing, because I don't care.  I also think about GM rounding up all the EV1's and crushing them.  It is a company, like Chrysler, that should have been allowed to die when the market had spoken.

 

I had a 1968 Firebird and I loved that car. I wish I still had it. But things change. The last two cars I have had, which covers 27 years was a Saab and a Passat. I also loved the Saab. The Passat not so much.

[rkbabang]

The Bolt goes 200 miles on one charge.

 

I don't trust GM products or its customer service.

It may not be the same GM from 10 years ago but it will take a lot for me to change my opinion of GM from decades of poor quality.

 

^^ This +100!

 

I've owned 1 Chevy in my life and I swore that I would never own another.  And I never will.  Yes that was in the 1980's, but a car is too large a purchase to take that chance.  I don't even follow GM or look at what they are doing, because I don't care.  I also think about GM rounding up all the EV1's and crushing them.  It is a company, like Chrysler, that should have been allowed to die when the market had spoken.

 

I had a 1968 Firebird and I loved that car. I wish I still had it. But things change. The last two cars I have had, which covers 27 years was a Saab and a Passat. I also loved the Saab. The Passat not so much.

 

I had a 83 Chevy Cavalier and that was in about 1988 or so, so it wasn't that old and it only had about 75K miles on it.  I got so sick of repairing it and getting stuck on the side of the road constantly that I didn't even try to sell it (I would have felt bad) I just had it towed to the junkyard.

As a teenager with very little money getting stuck with a lemon like that was a huge blow and I will never forgive them for it.

 

[augustabound]

Excuse me; Did they just (in less than 24 hours) get $200MM floated in deposits for a car that is over a year away?

 

You are as optimistic as Elon by saying over a year away.  ;D

 

Delays are a part of Tesla, I say more than 2. Maybe late 2018.

 

As for Chev/GM owners, I had an '86 S15 pickup. I loved the thing but it fell apart, literally. I knew others who owned S10/S15 and Sonoma's. That's what they all did, fell apart.

[boilermaker75]

Excuse me; Did they just (in less than 24 hours) get $200MM floated in deposits for a car that is over a year away?

 

You are as optimistic as Elon by saying over a year away.  ;D

 

Delays are a part of Tesla, I say more than 2. Maybe late 2018.

 

As for Chev/GM owners, I had an '86 S15 pickup. I loved the thing but it fell apart, literally. I knew others who owned S10/S15 and Sonoma's. That's what they all did, fell apart.

 

As I said, my next car is going to be a Tesla model 3 if my Passat makes it.

 

If not I am getting a Toyota. I am never buying another German made car. I have lost count of how many CV boots I have had to replace on my Passat and I just had a spring break. The car only has 77,000 miles on it. I have never had, or heard, of a spring breaking on a car.

 

Even worse was the VW Touareg we had. We got rid of it after the warranty was up because it was always in for repair. My daughter's beetle needed transmission work, motors for windows and seats, etc and it only had 50,000 miles on it when she got rid of it. She bought an Audi S3 and it already has needed a new seat motor. Fortunately it is only one year old and under warranty.

 

My wife's Mercedes ML350 has needed a lot including $10,000 for a new differential at about 60,000 miles.

[Jurgis]

I have lost count of how many CV boots I have had to replace on my Passat and I just had a spring break.

 

I thought it was normal for profs to have spring breaks...  perk of the job ::)

[boilermaker75]

I have lost count of how many CV boots I have had to replace on my Passat and I just had a spring break.

 

I thought it was normal for profs to have spring breaks...  perk of the job ::)

 

LOL, my car's spring break was getting fixed while I was on my Spring break in LA visiting my daughter.

[ERICOPOLY]

Choosing between an electric car isn't like choosing between an ICE.  Asthetics are less important.  What's more important is not feeling like you can't drive where you need to due to a lack of charging infrastructure. 

 

If you buy the Bolt you can only drive out 80-100 miles, sit and charge for 13 hours, then drive back home.  That's dead in the water if I ever saw it.  Sure, some people will buy it like people buy the Leaf or i3.  But that's not the answer for a mass market electric car.

 

Now what do you think the depreciation is going to be on a car that can't even get on par with the Tesla Model 3?  We've already seen how the Leaf and Volt depreciate.  It isn't pretty. 

 

And we're just ignoring all the other positives that will come from owning a Model 3 versus the Bolt.  Over the air software updates, autopilot ready, and better safety.  Why wouldn't someone just wait a little longer to buy the Model 3?

 

The Bolt goes 200 miles on one charge.

 

So you can get, realistically, on day trips get about 80 miles out of town in a Bolt.  That's when you start worrying about needing the rest of the juice to get home, with a buffer.

 

Compared to a Tesla where you travel 140 miles out of town and then stop for 20 minutes at a supercharger to get back to 80% full.  That gives you enough juice to then travel a similar radius around that supercharger, then a quick charge at the end of the trip to top up before heading 140 miles back home again.

 

The Bolt is extremely range limited unless the entire point of your day trip was to wait around for hours charging the car.

 

 

[jeffmori7]

Choosing between an electric car isn't like choosing between an ICE.  Asthetics are less important.  What's more important is not feeling like you can't drive where you need to due to a lack of charging infrastructure. 

 

If you buy the Bolt you can only drive out 80-100 miles, sit and charge for 13 hours, then drive back home.  That's dead in the water if I ever saw it.  Sure, some people will buy it like people buy the Leaf or i3.  But that's not the answer for a mass market electric car.

 

Now what do you think the depreciation is going to be on a car that can't even get on par with the Tesla Model 3?  We've already seen how the Leaf and Volt depreciate.  It isn't pretty. 

 

And we're just ignoring all the other positives that will come from owning a Model 3 versus the Bolt.  Over the air software updates, autopilot ready, and better safety.  Why wouldn't someone just wait a little longer to buy the Model 3?

 

The Bolt goes 200 miles on one charge.

 

So you can get, realistically, on day trips get about 80 miles out of town in a Bolt.  That's when you start worrying about needing the rest of the juice to get home, with a buffer.

 

Compared to a Tesla where you travel 140 miles out of town and then stop for 20 minutes at a supercharger to get back to 80% full.  That gives you enough juice to then travel a similar radius around that supercharger, then a quick charge at the end of the trip to top up before heading 140 miles back home again.

 

The Bolt is extremely range limited unless the entire point of your day trip was to wait around for hours charging the car.

 

Oh guys, you are not fair. First enough, you don't always need a car that can go 200-300 miles. For most of you with 2-3 cars at home, you really probably just need one car that can go a really long distance.Changing paradigm is dificult, and that is harder in USA where the car culture is so strong.

 

But to defend the Bolt or the LEAF or whatever other EVs out there, of course Superchargers are great, but 50KWh DC fast-charger are popping out all over the place and 100kWh will arrive soon enough. That is already good to fill up to 80% in 20-30 minutes. So the Bolt won't be that limited!

[Picasso]

If you're going to need to pay for another car for long distance travel, having a limited range EV is now twice as expensive. Why not just have less vehicles but ones that can get you anywhere without waiting hours?

 

Also these DC charging options are extra in the Bolt and there are just not enough DC chargers out there, period. There are also multiple providers with single spots, so if someone is using it you need to wait until they finish. You better hope they won't leave the Bolt there all day.

[jeffmori7]

If you're going to need to pay for another car for long distance travel, having a limited range EV is now twice as expensive. Why not just have less vehicles but ones that can get you anywhere without waiting hours?

 

Also these DC charging options are extra in the Bolt and there are just not enough DC chargers out there, period. There are also multiple providers with single spots, so if someone is using it you need to wait until they finish. You better hope they won't leave the Bolt there all day.

 

I do agree, we have only one car and I put a deposit for the Model III. But I think there is a market for the Bolt. We need more battery size, more format, different prices offering, etc. About having only one car per household, I know that is not the case for most, this is why I was saying that.

 

Here in Quebec, DC fast charging is expanding well so far, but I know that is not the case everywhere. And you pay 10$/hour so people won't leave their car all day long!

 

Anyway, I really see a time when we will subscribe to a service and get autonomous car and then, when you need more cargo space or more seats or long-distance travel, you take what you need, you are not confined to find the car that is a compromise in everything or overkill for 98% of your need.

[hyten1]

there is a product for every niche

 

i personally would not buy a EV right now especially as the "only" car, for the enthusiast, the early adopter sure ... go nuts. but waiting 30 min to fill up (charge up) just a pain (i am sure this is true for most people). as the only car, EV is not there yet, I don't want to wait 30 min and have detour on my trip to get to the chargers.

 

what is the percentage of people buying model3 or bolt are using them as their only car? i would think its below 50%, then again that is my guest, anyone with this type of data.

 

its funny how people talk about these limitations and issue, yet GM has a product call VOLT that eliminate them all, sure its not as sexy, sure its not "as" efficient as a pure electric. But if you use the VOLT as pure EV most of the time and use the Gas for long trip (i can fill up in minutes pretty much anywhere), its DAMN efficient.  BUT its not a tesla not as sexy, or cool, its Government Motors, etc. etc.

 

I would only consider EV as a "second" car, and would only use it as daily commute/city driving, that is just me.

 

 

hy

 

 

 

[Picasso]

there is a product for every niche

 

i personally would not buy a EV right now especially as the "only" car, for the enthusiast, the early adopter sure ... go nuts. but waiting 30 min to fill up (charge up) just a pain (i am sure this is true for most people). as the only car, EV is not there yet, I don't want to wait 30 min and have detour on my trip to get to the chargers.

 

what is the percentage of people buying model3 or bolt are using them as their only car? i would think its below 50%, then again that is my guest, anyone with this type of data.

 

its funny how people talk about these limitations and issue, yet GM has a product call VOLT that eliminate them all, sure its not as sexy, sure its not "as" efficient as a pure electric. But if you use the VOLT as pure EV most of the time and use the Gas for long trip (i can fill up in minutes pretty much anywhere), its DAMN efficient.  BUT its not a tesla not as sexy, or cool, its Government Motors, etc. etc.

 

I would only consider EV as a "second" car, and would only use it as daily commute/city driving, that is just me.

 

 

hy

 

I think the mistake here, as well as the mistake others seem to be making as well, is that you don't realize the electric car has to be much better than an ICE.  It isn't good enough to be a little better.  A Tesla is substantially better than the incumbent ICE products.  Can anyone really look at the Bolt and say "wow, I'm getting something so much better than my BMW 3 series?"  No.  And there are not enough people who want an electric car just because it's an electric car.  They want a better car at the right value.  And if Tesla executes then that's the Model 3.

[arcube]

And there are not enough people who want an electric car just because it's an electric car.  They want a better car at the right value.

 

This really sums it up. Valuations aside, the electric car from Tesla is just not only for tree huggers but also value buyers and car enthusiasts. I think a lot is missed by people that just  fail to see the electric and electronic (autonomous, remote management) ecosystem Tesla is building.

[JBird]

http://www.engadget.com/2016/04/02/tesla-underestimated-model-3-demand/

 

This would not be happening if Tesla was building mediocre cars.

[ERICOPOLY]

 

its funny how people talk about these limitations and issue, yet GM has a product call VOLT that eliminate them all, sure its not as sexy, sure its not "as" efficient as a pure electric. But if you use the VOLT as pure EV most of the time and use the Gas for long trip (i can fill up in minutes pretty much anywhere), its DAMN efficient.  BUT its not a tesla not as sexy, or cool, its Government Motors, etc. etc.

 

That's a bit like comparing a Ford Escort to a Porsche 911.  Certainly right that the VOLT is not sexy.

 

Nobody cares that a Porche 911 is not electric -- it's just really fun to drive.  That's what the Model S is, except it just happens to be electric.

 

Then there is that safety thing -- nobody has made a safer car than Tesla, the ones with the least experience building cars.

 

GM has a bad safety record -- they've made vehicles that literally self-ignite if you leave them idling.  How is it that for decades they just keep turning out mediocre crash test results, and then Tesla beats them on the first try?

[RichardGibbons]

How is it that for decades they just keep turning out mediocre crash test results, and then Tesla beats them on the first try?

 

This is quite an interesting question to me.  Some possible answers I've been thinking about:

 

• With a $100K car versus a $30K car, they have more money to spend on everything, including safety.
  
• Maybe GM's culture makes creating a safer car nearly impossible.
  
• Maybe because Tesla has its eggs in few baskets (models of car), it cares a lot about ensuring those baskets don't fall. GM has more baskets, so cares less about any one of them
  
• Maybe for GM, building a car is just a job. For Tesla, it's realizing a dream.
  
• Maybe safety is model-specific. So, with GM's mass production and reuse  of parts across models, it's harder to make the individual cars safer
  
• Maybe GM realizes it doesn't have to waste effort/money on safety, and people will still buy their cars. To break into the market, Tesla has to be much better than the rest, so they're willing to put effort/money on safety.
  

 

This is all speculation on my part, so I'm curious if someone has an answer to this question that's actually based on evidence.

[hyten1]

eric lets be fair, look at Volts record and reputation they are pretty good, you are right its like comparing a escort to 911 but then the prices reflects that (model S vs Volt). also lets be fair, if tesla was just a typical sedan (with its nice performance etc.) without the whole EV part, we won't be having all these discussion and the market cap of tesla won't be what it is, so saying Tesla just happen to EV is little disingenuous.

 

people bringing up the supercharger networks's advantage (conviently forget it still takes 30min to fill/charge up), all i am saying is, Volt solves that problem.

 

I wonder how much lower can the industry get the charging time down to? would they ever get it to less than 5min? it just doesn't seem like swaping out battery will ever be the solution. What is the charging time limit and how that will limit the EV market. Or i am missing something here. Maybe its wireless charging. Because at the end of the day i would never buy a EV as my "only" car due to this issue. I am sure there are lots of folks out their feeling the same.

 

 

EDIT: also model S is not their first try, tesla had the roadster before the model s.

 

EDIT 2: what are we arguing here? I don't disagree

 

1) Tesla are good products

2) Auto industry is changing

3) what will be like in the future, i don't know

 

but i guess I am a little frustrated with the attention/converge/hype that tesla is getting, i don't think its reflective/poportional of what they have achieved (yes they are good cars), then again i could be wrong. but then again that is my opinion.

 

the ideal EV car for me now would actually be  a hybrid between Model S + Volt then again that is not reality.

 

 

 

 

 

its funny how people talk about these limitations and issue, yet GM has a product call VOLT that eliminate them all, sure its not as sexy, sure its not "as" efficient as a pure electric. But if you use the VOLT as pure EV most of the time and use the Gas for long trip (i can fill up in minutes pretty much anywhere), its DAMN efficient.  BUT its not a tesla not as sexy, or cool, its Government Motors, etc. etc.

 

That's a bit like comparing a Ford Escort to a Porsche 911.  Certainly right that the VOLT is not sexy.

 

Nobody cares that a Porche 911 is not electric -- it's just really fun to drive.  That's what the Model S is, except it just happens to be electric.

 

Then there is that safety thing -- nobody has made a safer car than Tesla, the ones with the least experience building cars.

 

GM has a bad safety record -- they've made vehicles that literally self-ignite if you leave them idling.  How is it that for decades they just keep turning out mediocre crash test results, and then Tesla beats them on the first try?

[johnny]

How is it that for decades they just keep turning out mediocre crash test results, and then Tesla beats them on the first try?

 

This is quite an interesting question to me.  Some possible answers I've been thinking about:

 

• With a $100K car versus a $30K car, they have more money to spend on everything, including safety.
  
• Maybe GM's culture makes creating a safer car nearly impossible.
  
• Maybe because Tesla has its eggs in few baskets (models of car), it cares a lot about ensuring those baskets don't fall. GM has more baskets, so cares less about any one of them
  
• Maybe for GM, building a car is just a job. For Tesla, it's realizing a dream.
  
• Maybe safety is model-specific. So, with GM's mass production and reuse  of parts across models, it's harder to make the individual cars safer
  
• Maybe GM realizes it doesn't have to waste effort/money on safety, and people will still buy their cars. To break into the market, Tesla has to be much better than the rest, so they're willing to put effort/money on safety.
  

 

This is all speculation on my part, so I'm curious if someone has an answer to this question that's actually based on evidence.

 

 

Here is some more specific speculation:

 

1. The battery sled is super heavy and super low, which means the car is very hard to rollover.

 

2. The otherwise function-less engine area in the front allows for a lot of "crumple" to be designed in. this is a major injury-issue in traditional cars, as front collisions can otherwise drive the contents of the engine into your knees (a lot of people unlucky enough to crash vintage sports cars have injuries like this).

 

What both of these have in common is that they are consequences of being able to throw out the drivetrain and start from scratch, so it isn't especially surprising that an ICE company of any sort couldn't hit that performance, and it is in fact somewhat unfair to ask why they weren't doing it 30 years ago, when using 50,000 18650 cells for powering the drivetrain wasn't feasible.

[Picasso]

The Volt doesn't solve any problems.  It simply combines the worst of ICE and electric by giving you a watered down version of both.  It's not a great product.  If it was a great product it wouldn't depreciate by 70% in a couple years.

 

A 15 minute charge after driving for 200 miles isn't a big deal.  There are times where I only need to charge for 5 minutes to add 30 miles of range and then head home.  Almost everyone I know that has a Tesla enjoys that charging aspect on a long trip.  It at least gives them piece of mind that they aren't stuck within some 100 mile radius with very strict travel paths.

[ERICOPOLY]

if tesla was just a typical sedan (with its nice performance etc.) without the whole EV part, we won't be having all these discussion and the market cap of tesla won't be what it is, so saying Tesla just happen to EV is little disingenuous.

 

I disagree. 

 

The market cap could be the same if they eliminated the EV part and somehow still cranked out this kind of performance and safety in it's cars.  Their margins would be much higher without the superchargers and other investments that are EV specific.

 

Just look at what VW paid for Porsche on annual sales volume of roughly 140,000 cars at the time.