TSLA - Tesla Motors

[jeffmori7]

 

 

Unless they find something wrong with the car, I think it'll be a non-issue in the long run. Even the safest cars aren't invincible. If you cary around a lot of energy, either in a gas tank or a battery, there's potential for stuff to catch on fire.

 

An engineering friend at Ballard told me that power density in Lithium ion batteries was an inherent problem as more density increases the risk of spontaneous combustion. Perhaps the problem is that there was too much pressure to extend range vs. preventing fire risk by reducing power density.

 

Where I work they are working on lithium ion battery with impressive safety compared to what is available on the market today. I have seen some really nice videos, but so far, I haven't been able to find a public reference I could show you..I wil keep digging.

 

edit: Ok I got some presentations ;

 

http://www.advbe.com/docs/DeciElec2013-Karim-Zaghib-IREQ.pdf

 

and

 

http://www.emc-mec.ca/phev/Presentations_en/SW/PHEV09-W07_KarimZaghib.pdf

[rpadebet]

I have one more. I promise this is the last one

 

Tesla: Just to show you how serious we are about this environment thingy, without telling anyone we inserted a self destruct feature in there ala Mission Impossible 2.

[rkbabang]

"the car's alert system signaled a problem and instructed the driver to pull over safely"

 

At least you get a warning.

 

"WARNING your car will self destruct in 20 seconds,

WARNING your car will self destruct in 19 seconds,

WARNING ..."

 

[ERICOPOLY]

There are 31 highway vehicle fires per hour.

 

http://www.tkolb.net/tra_sch/carfires/index.html

 

And none of them are Teslas.  This one didn't happen on a highway.

 

 

[ERICOPOLY]

That link I posed shows that 1/10 of 1% of vehicles catch fire annually on the highway.

 

So we should expect greater than 20 Tesla fires annually now, going forward.  Unless the lack of an internal combustion engine turns out to reduce the number of fires.

[Liberty]

A search for "car fire" on youtube:

 

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=car+fire&page=&utm_source=opensearch

[ERICOPOLY]

So actually, if 1 in 1000 cars catch fire annually on the highway (as my link above suggests)...

 

Then Tesla makes the least fire-prone cars?

 

They've had a lot more than 1,000 average cars on the road over the past 12 months, but just 1 fire.  Plus, the Roadsters never caught fire.

 

[JBird]

Good post Eric. But just double checking the math: Roughly 200,000 (unintentional) vehicle fires per year from 254 million cars, right? So 7/100 of 1%. If so, on 20,000 Tesla's we'd expect ~14 fires.

[ERICOPOLY]

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702303722604579111052383880112.html?mod=WSJ_business_whatsNews

 

 

Tesla Sedan Roars Ahead in Norway

 

Norway Has Relatively Small Market But Buyers Are Affluent

 

 

Let me guess why. 

 

1) $10 a gallon for gas in Norway

2)  No value added tax on electric vehicles making a Tesla Model S the same cost as a Volkswagon Passat

3)  Great car

4)  Cheap hydro-generated electricity

 

What? The Tesla S is the same price as a Passat in Norway? :o

 

$10/gal gas, $80,000.00 for a Passat. It's a wonder anyone can afford to drive at all.

 

Well, here's a used 2013 Passat for $66,000:

 

http://m.ooyyo.no/detail/c=CD17057114D9854F111B926FBAA6355BA3A21D6615F385/-4638969442466894224.html/#

 

Very affordable!

[hyten1]

folks you want to get even more technical simply using the stats is not sufficient enough

 

to be more accurate you prob need to find same type of car by price, or compare to luxury sedans

 

hy

 

EDIT: i don't know the stats or did i look at it, does the stats break down by car type,  what if a good portion or fire are trucks or small econo cars etc.

[ERICOPOLY]

folks you want to get even more technical simply using the stats is not sufficient enough

 

to be more accurate you prob need to find same type of car by price, or compare to luxury sedans

 

hy

 

EDIT: i don't know the stats or did i look at it, does the stats break down by car type,  what if a good portion or fire are trucks or small econo cars etc.

 

I did find information that stated the majority of highway car fires were electrical in nature (bad wiring).  So it might have to do with the age of the fleet.  In other words, it takes a while for the insulation to go bad.  But that probably degrades faster under extreme conditions (such as the heat from the internal combustion engine may encourage the degradation process).

[rpadebet]

I have a question about the relevance of these facts/stats here

 

Why are we comparing the Tesla cars to other Internal combustion engine cars?

Wasn't the main selling point, this is a paradigm shift and is more like the iPhone and we should really be thinking Tesla as a tech company?

Since these cars use some sort of battery technology, isn't it a better comparison to use those Boeing aircraft's which seem to get grounded every now and then due to fire or those cases of smart phones with exploding batteries?

 

Also pretty sure when the first Ford Pinto caught fire the highway stats were similar, that wasn't enough for that car to survive.

 

PS: As for the counter view, I am also mindful I shouldn't be extrapolating one incident of fire and assuming it is some sort of widespread design issue. For all we know it could be a manufacturing defect in that one car.

 

[ERICOPOLY]

I have a question about the relevance of these facts/stats here

 

Why are we comparing the Tesla cars to other Internal combustion engine cars?

Wasn't the main selling point, this is a paradigm shift and is more like the iPhone and we should really be thinking Tesla as a tech company?

Since these cars use some sort of battery technology, isn't it a better comparison to use those Boeing aircraft's which seem to get grounded every now and then due to fire or those cases of smart phones with exploding batteries?

 

Also pretty sure when the first Ford Pinto caught fire the highway stats were similar, that wasn't enough for that car to survive.

 

PS: As for the counter view, I am also mindful I shouldn't be extrapolating one incident of fire and assuming it is some sort of widespread design issue. For all we know it could be a manufacturing defect in that one car.

 

Don't all cars use some sort of battery technology?

[rkbabang]

I have a question about the relevance of these facts/stats here

 

Why are we comparing the Tesla cars to other Internal combustion engine cars?

Wasn't the main selling point, this is a paradigm shift and is more like the iPhone and we should really be thinking Tesla as a tech company?

Since these cars use some sort of battery technology, isn't it a better comparison to use those Boeing aircraft's which seem to get grounded every now and then due to fire or those cases of smart phones with exploding batteries?

 

Also pretty sure when the first Ford Pinto caught fire the highway stats were similar, that wasn't enough for that car to survive.

 

PS: As for the counter view, I am also mindful I shouldn't be extrapolating one incident of fire and assuming it is some sort of widespread design issue. For all we know it could be a manufacturing defect in that one car.

 

Don't all cars use some sort of battery technology?

 

Yes, but 12V lead-acid batteries aren't known for failing spectacularly.  Google "laptop explodes"

 

[ERICOPOLY]

I have a question about the relevance of these facts/stats here

 

Why are we comparing the Tesla cars to other Internal combustion engine cars?

Wasn't the main selling point, this is a paradigm shift and is more like the iPhone and we should really be thinking Tesla as a tech company?

Since these cars use some sort of battery technology, isn't it a better comparison to use those Boeing aircraft's which seem to get grounded every now and then due to fire or those cases of smart phones with exploding batteries?

 

Also pretty sure when the first Ford Pinto caught fire the highway stats were similar, that wasn't enough for that car to survive.

 

PS: As for the counter view, I am also mindful I shouldn't be extrapolating one incident of fire and assuming it is some sort of widespread design issue. For all we know it could be a manufacturing defect in that one car.

 

Don't all cars use some sort of battery technology?

 

Yes, but 12V lead-acid batteries aren't known for failing spectacularly.  Google "laptop explodes"

 

Laptop batteries aren't liquid cooled.

 

Google "model S battery pack explodes".

[ERICOPOLY]

Actually, just Google for cars that caught fire without coolant.

 

Here you go:

 

Ford blames coolant system for Escape, Fusion fires

 

http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2012/12/10/ford-recall-escape-fusion-ecoboost/1759063/

 

 

If the coolant boils over, the engine goes into extreme overheating, which can result in fluids leaking, coming into contact with the hot exhaust system and potentially causing a fire. Ford said it has seen 12 fires in Escapes and one in a Fusion.

[rpadebet]

Actually, just Google for cars that caught fire without coolant.

 

Here you go:

 

Ford blames coolant system for Escape, Fusion fires

 

http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2012/12/10/ford-recall-escape-fusion-ecoboost/1759063/

 

 

If the coolant boils over, the engine goes into extreme overheating, which can result in fluids leaking, coming into contact with the hot exhaust system and potentially causing a fire. Ford said it has seen 12 fires in Escapes and one in a Fusion.

 

So is it possible that in an accident involving a Tesla vehicle, the battery pack gets punctured, the coolant leaks out, eventually the batteries get hot and then explode, causing the fire?

[ERICOPOLY]

Actually, just Google for cars that caught fire without coolant.

 

Here you go:

 

Ford blames coolant system for Escape, Fusion fires

 

http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2012/12/10/ford-recall-escape-fusion-ecoboost/1759063/

 

 

If the coolant boils over, the engine goes into extreme overheating, which can result in fluids leaking, coming into contact with the hot exhaust system and potentially causing a fire. Ford said it has seen 12 fires in Escapes and one in a Fusion.

 

So is it possible that in an accident involving a Tesla vehicle, the battery pack gets punctured, the coolant leaks out, eventually the batteries get hot and then explode, causing the fire?

 

No, the Tesla car smashed into a Mercedes, rupturing it's fuel tank, and the Tesla car burned in the resulting gasoline fire long before the battery pack coolant leaked out.

 

[wisdom]

From what I understand -

most electrical batteries have this problem. One of the reasons Munger likes BYD is they claim to have virtually gotten rid of this problem with their battery technology.

 

Even though BYD is the largest manufacturer of batteries for cell phones and laptops, they have had no instances of them catching fire even though the Japanese batteries have been known to burn up.

 

Check out some of the test videos on BYD.

 

There was a BYD taxi that had caught fire in a high speed crash - the Nissan GTR was reported to be travelling at 150kmph. Reports indicated that it was not related to the batteries even at that speed. Thus, BYD cars do not need as much protection from the batteries burning up.

 

 

[jeffmori7]

From what I understand -

most electrical batteries have this problem. One of the reasons Munger likes BYD is they claim to have virtually gotten rid of this problem with their battery technology.

 

Even though BYD is the largest manufacturer of batteries for cell phones and laptops, they have had no instances of them catching fire even though the Japanese batteries have been known to burn up.

 

Check out some of the test videos on BYD.

 

There was a BYD taxi that had caught fire in a high speed crash - the Nissan GTR was reported to be travelling at 150kmph. Reports indicated that it was not related to the batteries even at that speed. Thus, BYD cars do not need as much protection from the batteries burning up.

 

Exactly, we don't say something is wrong with Tesla batteries, or with this fire, but it is true that this is known problematic inherent to most batteries. But there is a lot of research on this, see the links I posted above.

[ERICOPOLY]

folks you want to get even more technical simply using the stats is not sufficient enough

 

to be more accurate you prob need to find same type of car by price, or compare to luxury sedans

 

hy

 

EDIT: i don't know the stats or did i look at it, does the stats break down by car type,  what if a good portion or fire are trucks or small econo cars etc.

 

 

Do high priced cars catch fire less?  Here is an $840,000 car that caught fire:

 

http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2012/02/ferrari-ff-catches-fire-in-shanghai.html

 

Worth about 5.3 million Chinese Yuan, or $840,000 USD, this is not the first FF to set itself on fire. Another FF suffered a similar fate last June, likely caused by defective heat reflectors surrounding the FF’s exhaust.

 

 

Of course, the comparison to Model S may not be fair.  The Model S does not have an exhaust system that could contribute to a fire.

 

Oh wait, we don't worry about things we are familiar with.  We only fear new and exotic ways to be killed.  For example, if the risk is higher in being killed in a car crash on the way to the beach, we will instead not worry about that and only worry about the risk of a shark attack.

 

 

[ERICOPOLY]

I have a question about the relevance of these facts/stats here

 

Why are we comparing the Tesla cars to other Internal combustion engine cars?

Wasn't the main selling point, this is a paradigm shift and is more like the iPhone and we should really be thinking Tesla as a tech company?

Since these cars use some sort of battery technology, isn't it a better comparison to use those Boeing aircraft's which seem to get grounded every now and then due to fire or those cases of smart phones with exploding batteries?

 

Also pretty sure when the first Ford Pinto caught fire the highway stats were similar, that wasn't enough for that car to survive.

 

PS: As for the counter view, I am also mindful I shouldn't be extrapolating one incident of fire and assuming it is some sort of widespread design issue. For all we know it could be a manufacturing defect in that one car.

 

Don't all cars use some sort of battery technology?

 

Yes, but 12V lead-acid batteries aren't known for failing spectacularly.  Google "laptop explodes"

 

Here is a comment on lead acid batteries:

 

Jeff Chamberlain, deputy director of the Joint Center for Energy Storage Research at Argonne National Lab in Illinois, said that like in any other battery fire, it comes down to a short circuit.

 

"If you puncture any battery, whether it's lead-acid, alkaline or lithium-ion, you'll create a short circuit and make connections across interfaces that you should not be making." he said. "When that short occurs, it creates heat and energy, which causes the fire."

 

http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/tesla-model-catch-fire/story?id=20462128

 

[Liberty]

Of course, the comparison to Model S may not be fair.  The Model S does not have an exhaust system that could contribute to a fire.

 

If you hit a large metal debris and it gets stuck under the car and dragged along, chances are that'll cause quite some sparks.

 

In a normal collision you probably don't have that.

[Liberty]

Letter by Elon Musk about the accident:

 

http://www.businessinsider.com/model-s-fire-elon-musk-2013-10

[Grenville]

Letter by Elon Musk about the accident:

 

http://www.businessinsider.com/model-s-fire-elon-musk-2013-10

 

Good information, thanks!