TSLA - Tesla Motors

[rkbabang]

A big difference to an ICE car is running the heater.  You get the cabin heat in an ICE car as a byproduct, but in a Tesla the cabin heat comes from an electric heater that puts a drain on the battery. 

 

On top of the fact that the battery isn't as efficient in cold weather to begin with.  People in the North East or around the great lakes want heated air, heated seats, heated steering wheels, heated mirrors, heated windshields, heated windshield wipers and wiper fluid, etc...  One problem with Tesla is that I think it is too California focused.  Even going with radar over lidar for its self-driving features would be a joke in a serious snowstorm or blizzard. Although I'm not sure if any car company has autonomous features that will work with completely snow covered roads in white-out conditions.

 

[fareastwarriors]

A big difference to an ICE car is running the heater.  You get the cabin heat in an ICE car as a byproduct, but in a Tesla the cabin heat comes from an electric heater that puts a drain on the battery. 

 

On top of the fact that the battery isn't as efficient in cold weather to begin with.  People in the North East or around the great lakes want heated air, heated seats, heated steering wheels, heated mirrors, heated windshields, heated windshield wipers and wiper fluid, etc...  One problem with Tesla is that I think it is too California focused.  Even going with radar over lidar for its self-driving features would be a joke in a serious snowstorm or blizzard. Although I'm not sure if any car company has autonomous features that will work with completely snow covered roads in white-out conditions.

 

I like the ability to preheat/cool the car from the app even though I'm in California (SF Bay Area).  I'm soft like that.

[Liberty]

A big difference to an ICE car is running the heater.  You get the cabin heat in an ICE car as a byproduct, but in a Tesla the cabin heat comes from an electric heater that puts a drain on the battery. 

 

On top of the fact that the battery isn't as efficient in cold weather to begin with.

 

 

They sell a lot in Norway and have testing tracks there (iirc).

 

Batteries are less efficient in cold weather, but so are ICEs, by a significantly amount, depending on conditions (cold start + higher rolling resistance if there's snow on the ground and from winter tires + worse aerodynamics if there's ice and snow on the exterior of the car).

 

On EV you can mitigate some of that by pre-conditioning the cabin of the car while still plugged, so that you start with it already warm, and you keep the battery warm that way too. But you still face the other things.

 

But in the end, all that matters is that you have plenty of energy to do the driving that you need to do, which is one reason why having spare juice in the batteries and not making them too small (to lower costs) is probably a good idea.

[perulv]

They sell a lot in Norway and have testing tracks there (iirc).

 

Norwegian here. Yes, there is _a lot_ of Teslas here, and EVs make up more than 50% of new car sales these days (https://insideevs.com/news/391146/2019-plugin-car-sales-norway-increased/). This is of course due to lots of economic incentives, and regular combustion-cars are heavily taxes. I don't have an EV myself, but it seems the "range anxiety" is mostly something people not owning EVs talk about, and the people that have them seldom think about or discuss.

 

Anyway, the main point of my comment is an anecdotal evidence of Teslas doing fine in the winter. The attached pictures are taken at my cabin yesterday. I took a couple of pictures to show my wife and kids that there are snow there now. Turns out the car on the parking-lot is a Tesla X, and  one of the cars next to the road is a Tesla S (you can tell it's an electric by the EV number-plate) :) There were of course more non-EV cars there in total, but this is not an unusual sight any more.

[John Hjorth]

Thank you for sharing, Per.

[Kaegi2011]

 

But battery degradation seems to be very low and not really a problem, unless maybe if you use the car as a cab and drive way more than average. But that's not unlike the extra wear and tear on a gasoline car from extra mileage. They've also made improvements in battery longevity over time, so I suspect that newer EVs will have batteries that degrade even less over time.

 

Absolutely, but you are well informed on the topic.  If you poll the US I bet a huge portion of the issues that pop up are charging/range anxiety and battery life, regardless if it's grounded in reality (Leaf's experience on battery longevity doesn't help in this regard...).  The technology has been good enough for most American drivers for a while now in terms of daily commute, but as you know adoption is still very low due to some of these misconceptions.  Now Tesla has made EVs cool it's garnered a lot of interest that the segment would not have had otherwise, so I'm happy about the visibility that brings to the entire EV lineup. 

[Castanza]

 

This guy has some good in-depth videos on Tesla with cold weather. Extreme cold definitely has so adverse affects on charging etc. ICE cars are not immune to this either. I know a lady who is a nurse in Barrow Alaska (northernmost town). She says that it gets so cold that they have to drain the oil from their vehicles while the engine is warm and keep it in the house so that it doesn’t congeal. Again an extreme example, but point being any mechanical equipment or tech will have issues in extreme situations. The question is can Tesla handle the majority of situations? It seems pretty clear that they can.

[Liberty]

 

This guy has some good in-depth videos on Tesla with cold weather. Extreme cold definitely has so adverse affects on charging etc. ICE cars are not immune to this either. I know a lady who is a nurse in Barrow Alaska (northernmost town). She says that it gets so cold that they have to drain the oil from their vehicles while the engine is warm and keep it in the house so that it doesn’t congeal. Again an extreme example, but point being any mechanical equipment or tech will have issues in extreme situations. The question is can Tesla handle the majority of situations? It seems pretty clear that they can.

 

Reminds me of old USSR anecdotes about cab drivers having to light small fires under their engines to unfreeze their Lada's oil so they could start up...

 

Sounds like the lady should just use a block heater. Many people used to use them here in Canada, but i don't see them much anymore. Modern engines are much better at starting up in the cold.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Block_heater

[bizaro86]

I see block heaters on a pretty regular basis. We had a extended cold snap in early January (-25C lows for about a week) and most vehicles outside were plugged in. The last time I bought a vehicle the dealership said they pre-install them so buying it wasn't optional.

[ERICOPOLY]

So the temperature outside began at 70 when I left the house today, reached 75, and fell back to 65 by the time I got back to the house this evening. 

 

I drove 41.5 miles and used 12.0 kWh.  At that pace, a new 85 kWh battery would get 294 miles of range.

 

Compare that 294 mile range to the advertised 265 mile range when the car was new.

[Liberty]

So the temperature outside began at 70 when I left the house today, reached 75, and fell back to 65 by the time I got back to the house this evening. 

 

I drove 41.5 miles and used 12.0 kWh.  At that pace, a new 85 kWh battery would get 294 miles of range.

 

Compare that 294 mile range to the advertised 265 mile range when the car was new.

 

The kind of driving makes a big difference too. EVs are, counter-intuitively for those used to ICEs, often more efficient in city driving than in highway driving because of the regenerative braking.

 

It also matters what kind of elevation delta you had. If you were going downhill you'll get better efficiency than uphill (obviously, but most people forget to take it into account).

 

There should be somewhere in your software that shows the elevation differential for a planned trip, and the range estimates should automatically take it into account, afaik.

[ERICOPOLY]

So the temperature outside began at 70 when I left the house today, reached 75, and fell back to 65 by the time I got back to the house this evening. 

 

I drove 41.5 miles and used 12.0 kWh.  At that pace, a new 85 kWh battery would get 294 miles of range.

 

Compare that 294 mile range to the advertised 265 mile range when the car was new.

 

The kind of driving makes a big difference too. EVs are, counter-intuitively for those used to ICEs, often more efficient in city driving than in highway driving because of the regenerative braking.

 

It also matters what kind of elevation delta you had. If you were going downhill you'll get better efficiency than uphill (obviously, but most people forget to take it into account).

 

There should be somewhere in your software that shows the elevation differential for a planned trip, and the range estimates should automatically take it into account, afaik.

 

Higher elevations have better range due to thinner air, but my home is close to Sacramento. 

 

Beginning and ending points were the same, no net elevation change.

 

Mix of highway and city, up to 65 MPH.

[rkbabang]

So the temperature outside began at 70 when I left the house today, reached 75, and fell back to 65 by the time I got back to the house this evening. 

 

I drove 41.5 miles and used 12.0 kWh.  At that pace, a new 85 kWh battery would get 294 miles of range.

 

Compare that 294 mile range to the advertised 265 mile range when the car was new.

 

The kind of driving makes a big difference too. EVs are, counter-intuitively for those used to ICEs, often more efficient in city driving than in highway driving because of the regenerative braking.

 

It also matters what kind of elevation delta you had. If you were going downhill you'll get better efficiency than uphill (obviously, but most people forget to take it into account).

 

There should be somewhere in your software that shows the elevation differential for a planned trip, and the range estimates should automatically take it into account, afaik.

 

Most trips are round trips.  You drive somewhere then you drive home.  So if you drove uphill there you will drive downhill back.  Unless you are driving to where your parents went to school you usually aren't driving uphill both ways.

 

[Liberty]

So the temperature outside began at 70 when I left the house today, reached 75, and fell back to 65 by the time I got back to the house this evening. 

 

I drove 41.5 miles and used 12.0 kWh.  At that pace, a new 85 kWh battery would get 294 miles of range.

 

Compare that 294 mile range to the advertised 265 mile range when the car was new.

 

The kind of driving makes a big difference too. EVs are, counter-intuitively for those used to ICEs, often more efficient in city driving than in highway driving because of the regenerative braking.

 

It also matters what kind of elevation delta you had. If you were going downhill you'll get better efficiency than uphill (obviously, but most people forget to take it into account).

 

There should be somewhere in your software that shows the elevation differential for a planned trip, and the range estimates should automatically take it into account, afaik.

 

Most trips are round trips.  You drive somewhere then you drive home.  So if you drove uphill there you will drive downhill back.  Unless you are driving to where your parents went to school you usually aren't driving uphill both ways.

 

Absolutely. But it's still worth pointing out because a lot of people will look at these numbers after a long trip ("we drove 500 miles to Las Vegas and I got X MPG/kWH-mile") and they fail to take into account if the trip had a significant elevation change because they just didn't think of it.

[Kaegi2011]

 

The kind of driving makes a big difference too. EVs are, counter-intuitively for those used to ICEs, often more efficient in city driving than in highway driving because of the regenerative braking.

 

 

Aero drag is also a huge factor at highway speeds.  I can get a ~25-50% increase in MPG from drafting a semi on the highway, depending on how close I want to be to it.  At lower speeds aero is just not much of a factor in terms of energy use. 

 

Between lower aero drag, regen, and poor efficiency of ICE at lower speeds, the energy consumption b/t ICE and EVs for city driving is enormous. 

 

[Liberty]

 

The kind of driving makes a big difference too. EVs are, counter-intuitively for those used to ICEs, often more efficient in city driving than in highway driving because of the regenerative braking.

 

 

Aero drag is also a huge factor at highway speeds.  I can get a ~25-50% increase in MPG from drafting a semi on the highway, depending on how close I want to be to it.  At lower speeds aero is just not much of a factor in terms of energy use. 

 

Between lower aero drag, regen, and poor efficiency of ICE at lower speeds, the energy consumption b/t ICE and EVs for city driving is enormous.

 

Yeah. One of the reasons why Teslas have really really good coefficient of drag .

 

The 2017 Tesla Model 3 has a 0.23 Cd

 

2016 Tesla Model S – 0.24 Cd

 

2018 Tesla Model X – 0.25 Cd

 

A lot of other cars have also improved over time, but a few years ago, you'd find this range almost only on the Prius.

[Castanza]

A pretty good video detailing energy efficiency, density, and mass between ICE and EVs.

 

[boilermaker75]

 

The kind of driving makes a big difference too. EVs are, counter-intuitively for those used to ICEs, often more efficient in city driving than in highway driving because of the regenerative braking.

 

 

Aero drag is also a huge factor at highway speeds.  I can get a ~25-50% increase in MPG from drafting a semi on the highway, depending on how close I want to be to it.  At lower speeds aero is just not much of a factor in terms of energy use. 

 

Between lower aero drag, regen, and poor efficiency of ICE at lower speeds, the energy consumption b/t ICE and EVs for city driving is enormous.

 

You've probably never been hit by tread coming off a semi. I have. My Saab was  not drivable from the damage. Fortunately no injuries. The semi kept going. I avoid being behind semis.

[rkbabang]

 

The kind of driving makes a big difference too. EVs are, counter-intuitively for those used to ICEs, often more efficient in city driving than in highway driving because of the regenerative braking.

 

 

Aero drag is also a huge factor at highway speeds.  I can get a ~25-50% increase in MPG from drafting a semi on the highway, depending on how close I want to be to it.  At lower speeds aero is just not much of a factor in terms of energy use. 

 

Between lower aero drag, regen, and poor efficiency of ICE at lower speeds, the energy consumption b/t ICE and EVs for city driving is enormous.

 

You've probably never been hit by tread coming off a semi. I have. My Saab was  not drivable from the damage. Fortunately no injuries. The semi kept going. I avoid being behind semis.

 

I got run off the road trying to pass a semi in the desert between Phoenix and Tucson.  There was no other cars as far as the eye could see, I was in the left lane and he was in the right lane.  As I was passing him he just changed to the left lane for no reason like I wasn't even there and I drove into the median full of sand and desert vegetation going 80mph in a compact car.  I was able to bring the car to a stop without flipping it somehow.  The trucker just drove on like I was never there.  I stay away from trucks whenever possible.  Stay way behind and if you pass, pass quickly.  I often see people just traveling on the side of or right close behind big trucks and I just think they are insane.

 

[Kaegi2011]

 

The kind of driving makes a big difference too. EVs are, counter-intuitively for those used to ICEs, often more efficient in city driving than in highway driving because of the regenerative braking.

 

 

Aero drag is also a huge factor at highway speeds.  I can get a ~25-50% increase in MPG from drafting a semi on the highway, depending on how close I want to be to it.  At lower speeds aero is just not much of a factor in terms of energy use. 

 

Between lower aero drag, regen, and poor efficiency of ICE at lower speeds, the energy consumption b/t ICE and EVs for city driving is enormous.

 

You've probably never been hit by tread coming off a semi. I have. My Saab was  not drivable from the damage. Fortunately no injuries. The semi kept going. I avoid being behind semis.

 

I got run off the road trying to pass a semi in the desert between Phoenix and Tucson.  There was no other cars as far as the eye could see, I was in the left lane and he was in the right lane.  As I was passing him he just changed to the left lane for no reason like I wasn't even there and I drove into the median full of sand and desert vegetation going 80mph in a compact car.  I was able to bring the car to a stop without flipping it somehow.  The trucker just drove on like I was never there.  I stay away from trucks whenever possible.  Stay way behind and if you pass, pass quickly.  I often see people just traveling on the side of or right close behind big trucks and I just think they are insane.

 

I don't make a habit of doing this, but I was interested in seeing the delta in MPG.  I was just noting that the aero drag is very significant at highway speeds.

[Castanza]

As someone who has a Class A CDL and about 3k miles in road time (not really lot) stay the hell away from semis. Keeping a 8.5ft wide truck in an 9-12ft wide lane is difficult enough on a perfect day. Throw in some crosswinds, inclement weather and it's a whole different ball game. Especially in construction zones. I see so many morons driving right next to them on lane merges with barriers on either side. And remember if your riding their ass they can't see you. Rear blind spot is something like 30-50ft depending on trailer.

[rkbabang]

As someone who has a Class A CDL and about 3k miles in road time (not really lot) stay the hell away from semis. Keeping a 8.5ft wide truck in an 9-12ft wide lane is difficult enough on a perfect day. Throw in some crosswinds, inclement weather and it's a whole different ball game. Especially in construction zones. I see so many morons driving right next to them on lane merges with barriers on either side. And remember if your riding their ass they can't see you. Rear blind spot is something like 30-50ft depending on trailer.

 

And if you are in the truckers rear blind spot then you are blind as well.  You can't see what happens in front of the truck and you won't know if he is about to slam on his breaks until after he does so, add in your reaction time and a crash is hard to avoid.

 

[Liberty]

As someone who has a Class A CDL and about 3k miles in road time (not really lot) stay the hell away from semis. Keeping a 8.5ft wide truck in an 9-12ft wide lane is difficult enough on a perfect day. Throw in some crosswinds, inclement weather and it's a whole different ball game. Especially in construction zones. I see so many morons driving right next to them on lane merges with barriers on either side. And remember if your riding their ass they can't see you. Rear blind spot is something like 30-50ft depending on trailer.

 

And if you are in the truckers rear blind spot then you are blind as well.  You can't see what happens in front of the truck and you won't know if he is about to slam on his breaks until after he does so, add in your reaction time and a crash is hard to avoid.

 

More reasons why we need self-driving trucks with 360-degree cameras, ultrasonics, radars, and V2V coms.

[Castanza]

As someone who has a Class A CDL and about 3k miles in road time (not really lot) stay the hell away from semis. Keeping a 8.5ft wide truck in an 9-12ft wide lane is difficult enough on a perfect day. Throw in some crosswinds, inclement weather and it's a whole different ball game. Especially in construction zones. I see so many morons driving right next to them on lane merges with barriers on either side. And remember if your riding their ass they can't see you. Rear blind spot is something like 30-50ft depending on trailer.

 

And if you are in the truckers rear blind spot then you are blind as well.  You can't see what happens in front of the truck and you won't know if he is about to slam on his breaks until after he does so, add in your reaction time and a crash is hard to avoid.

 

More reasons why we need self-driving trucks with 360-degree cameras, ultrasonics, radars, and V2V coms.

 

At the very least driver assist technology. Making turns with a 53 foot trailer and having to make adjustments (possibly stop and reverse) mid turn due to other vehicles, pedestrians, signs, etc seems way too difficult.

[Kaegi2011]

As someone who has a Class A CDL and about 3k miles in road time (not really lot) stay the hell away from semis. Keeping a 8.5ft wide truck in an 9-12ft wide lane is difficult enough on a perfect day. Throw in some crosswinds, inclement weather and it's a whole different ball game. Especially in construction zones. I see so many morons driving right next to them on lane merges with barriers on either side. And remember if your riding their ass they can't see you. Rear blind spot is something like 30-50ft depending on trailer.

 

And if you are in the truckers rear blind spot then you are blind as well.  You can't see what happens in front of the truck and you won't know if he is about to slam on his breaks until after he does so, add in your reaction time and a crash is hard to avoid.

 

More reasons why we need self-driving trucks with 360-degree cameras, ultrasonics, radars, and V2V coms.

 

At the very least driver assist technology. Making turns with a 53 foot trailer and having to make adjustments (possibly stop and reverse) mid turn due to other vehicles, pedestrians, signs, etc seems way too difficult.

 

Level 5 can't come soon enough.  Every day I see people not paying attention while going 70MPH on the highway (makeup, texting, you name it).  Last week I saw a woman literally watching youtube with her left hand while driving.  Thankfully she had enough brain cells to be in the slow lane doing "only" 60MPH.